A Lot of Words

This week's topic is Christian
nationalism.

Christian nationalism is statism.

It is the idea that the church and the
state need to merge somehow.

Does Psalm 2 teach that governments are
supposed to submit to Christ?

Yes, absolutely it does. Yeah, governments
should submit to Christ. Our nation, I

-think the greatest nation in history-
-What should a church's involvement be with

-politics?
-Churches should be super involved in

-politics.
-If one of your friends gets caught in the

trappings of Christian nationalism, what
would your counsel be to them?

With one of your friends? I would, at a
certain point, I would just...

Welcome back to the Loud Words podcast.
I'm Brett Schaening, joining with me as

-always-
-I'm Matt Smith.

Is...

-I just-
-Oh, wow.

-I just wanna do that when you say-
-I was about to say- ... I have a bunch of

stuff to do in the beginning, don't
interrupt me.

-Uh.
-And then you did it. That was great.

-Uh-
-I'm Matt Smith.

-Joining me is-
-One of the many Matt Smiths.

As always,

senior pastor of Barabas Road Church here
in Southern California, Matt Smith. Uh,

what are we doing on this podcast? Every
Monday, we're coming to you, bringing you-

Tuesday, or it's a Monday? Yeah. Today's

-Tu- Sorry, God forgive me.
-Do you wanna continue to sabotage my

-intro-
-I just-

-... with your-
-You said every Monday. I'm freaking out,

'cause you said every Monday. We're
filming on a Tuesday.

Mm-hmm.

-Wait, today's a Monday. Today's Tuesday.
-Today's Tuesday.

But you're gonna see this on Monday
morning.

-It releases on Monday.
-And when you see this, like, ah.

-It will be Monday.
-I, I really am tripped out by the time of-

This is good. This is help- this is

-helping your credibility for the next-
-You're in the future right now

-... for the remainder of the show.
-Let me tell you.

If anyone, this is their 1st time, they've
already moved on. We've, we've lost at

least 5 subscribers,

which is... The good news is we have 2,000
subscribers now.

-Well, hey.
-So thank all of you. Again, what are we

doing on the show? We're answering the
questions that you actually ask. If you

have a question you want us to answer on
the show,

go to loudwordspodcast.com, click on the
Ask a Question button, submit your

question. We'll either answer it live on
the show, or we'll turn it into a topic

that we discuss for an hour and a half to
2 hours, potentially longer, as Matt puts

a lot of words and a lot of A's on your
Qs. And yeah, we're at 2,000 subscribers.

-Pretty awesome.
-That's a real-

-It's a real number
-... number.

-That's-
-Not a fake number.

I just noticed you used your pen as, like,
a gavel as you... to emphasize your

points. I've never seen you do that
before.

-Yeah.
-It was really impressive.

It's from drumming,

I think. I'm, I'm hitting the, the crash
cymbal as I-

I was showing my family, I rediscovered,
uh, this lady who sings called Elise

Trouw, and she basically... I know you've
heard of this. She goes and does those

-loops. They're, like, live-
-Uh-huh

... where she'll sit up and she'll, like,
play a couple notes-

-Mm-hmm
-... and then she'll go do the next thing.

Like Ed Sheeran.

Well, this is before this. This was, like,
years ago.

-Wow.
-And, but she's really good and she can,

like, play. So then she'll do the drums
and she'll do the thing, and she's... it's

all live and it's really good. And when
you did the drumming thing, I was just

-seeing that yesterday.
-Mm-hmm.

-It was, like, very impressive.
-It's-

But I can't follow... Because here's what
gets me. You have to be able to know how

to play every instrument, fine. You have
to know how to, uh, organize, like, the

-loops.
-Mm-hmm.

Okay? And then you have to know how to
turn them on and off, and then you have to

know how to film it all with one take. I
mean, you're basically choreography mixed

with tech. I mean, how do you even know
how to w- set up which thing, like, when

you touch which keyboard

to which mic to go pick up the bass and to
add a loop back in? Like, and then sing

-and do it all? I mean-
-It's impressive.

-It's weird. You're an alien species-
-Yeah

... from another planet. So I just think
that stuff is crazy.

-Those-
-Drumming's crazy. Just the fact, even just

drumming, just by itself, drumming,
you're doing 2 separate things.

-Mm-hmm. 4 separate things.
-Well, okay, but yeah, you get what I mean.

You got 2 feet too.

-Yeah, that's crazy.
-Yeah. Yeah, they, um... Have I talked

about my Ed Sheeran experience on the
podcast yet?

-No. I don't... I feel-
-So it was during... This is, this is maybe

2 months ago. Ed Sheeran was in town,

and I got a text during... while we were
filming, and it was like 4:00 PM from my,

my... well, Jeremy's dad, Les Banks. Shout
out Les Banks. Um, he's the, you know,

40-year veteran sound man at the Ryman
Auditorium in Nashville, Tennessee.

And he was... originally he worked in San
Diego. Anyway, he gets crazy good tickets

to shows of people he meets, and he's met,
you know, I could give you the list of

every celebrity ever. Anyone who's good at
music, he's probably met them, and he's a

great guy, so he knows them. Sends me a
text, "Hey, do you wanna go to Ed

Sheeran's show tonight?" And, uh, and he's
playing at Petco Park, huge, our baseball

stadium here.

And I thought, "How am I gonna pull that
off?" He's playing at 7:00. It's 4:00. I

-have 3 kids. This is just impossible.
-Oh, I do remember this. Okay.

So, so I t- I, I initially was like, "I'll
send them to, um, Chris and Katie. I know

they like his music. Maybe they can go as
a couple."

And he's like, "I, I can go, but Katie,
she's... we have... they have kids too."

-Yes, yes.
-So then it ends up being-

-So great
-... me and Chris.

-And I told him, I said, I said-
-We have a very progressive couple.

I said, "Chris, these tickets are gonna be
good. I just don't know how good." So

he's like, "I'm in." And I'm like, "Okay,
with Ed Sheeran, I maybe know 2 of his

-songs." And then we show up.
-Is he, like, a hard... Like, don't girls

-like him?
-Girls love him. So we keep walking and I'm

like, "Oh, no." And then you're like, "We
need a wristband." So we're, like,

already in a line with a bunch of women to
get wristbands with their, like, teenage

daughters and their crying moms. And then
we just keep going. We're, we're, we're

-right in... we're in the 1st row.
-We're 2 straight men-

-This is the s- we're true, true-
-... straight up there

... true middle-aged dads,

-straight-
-People are throwing their bras on stage,

and you guys are, like, just standing
there, like, with your arms crossed.

Oh, at every slow song, I would just
slowly go to grab his hand.

And he's like, "No." And then I felt
terrible 'cause-

-Ugh
-... there's, uh, there's these girls

behind us and I'm just... I'm tall. So I
was like, "I, I gotta... I'm just..." And

-I was like-
-And I was wearing a giant sombrero.

I was like, "You can just go in front of
us." And what I remember was I took, I

took... I wore a hat and sunglasses like,
"Chris, if anyone sees us here from

church, I got... this is gonna be some
hard explaining to do."

-I love it.
-And so we're, we're in our seats 2 minutes

and

these 3 girls come up and they're all in
their 20s and they're like, "You're,

you're, you're from Barabas... You're
Barabas Road guys."

They're pointing at Chris 'cause he sings,
so they see his face a lot more.

-Oh, yeah.
-And then he's like, "Yeah, yeah, and

Pastor Brett's here too." And she's like,

"Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know you from the
podcast."

-And I was like, "What?"
-From the podcast.

From the podcast, that's what she said.

And, uh, then I went through how
embarrassing this was. Um-

-Now everyone knows.
-And now everyone knows. And then sh- well,

he had a friend

that he hasn't seen since college.

-Sh-
-Wow.

And she was there and she's like, "Chris?"

And then when she... I was like, "Hi, I'm
Chris-"

-It's all-
-I go, I go, "Hi, I'm Chris's partner,

Brett."

No, I go... I'm just kidding. But it was,

it was, uh... there, she... so Ed Sheeran
does all this. It was... the, the concert

-was called Loop, and he does-
-Oh, yeah

... all the loop, how to live. Does it all
live.

And he probably played

100 songs. He played for 3 hours and 25
minutes. Had it-

And does he do the drums? He does all of
it?

-Uh, just guitar.
-Okay, so that's what I'm saying. This

chick that I mentioned, Elise Trow, she
does every instrument. She does the drums.

Ah.

She does the bass. She does the guitar.
She does-

-Are you saying trout?
-Trow.

-Trow.
-But it's,

it, it is... The 1st one she did, w- I
don't know, she did... They're covers. It

-is the most amazing thing.
-Mm-hmm.

And her voice is awesome. But I just can't
get past the weirdness-

-Yeah
-... of just to play every instrument well-

Mm-hmm

-... is hard, you know? I mean, granted-
-Mm-hmm

... a lot of these songs are 4 chord
songs. I, I'm sorry, we're on a thing. But

I'm like, I just can't get over the, what
do you call it? The, the mixing of it.

-Mm-hmm.
-Like, the looping of it takes a lot of

-skill.
-Yeah.

But looping all these instruments while
you're singing, I mean, it's crazy.

-Mm-hmm.
-People are crazy.

-Yeah, what is life?
-Because what, what's your mind thinking

-about?
-Mm-hmm.

Like, when I'm preaching a sermon, it's
fascinating because you have 2 minds,

-right? One mind is speaking-
-Mm-hmm

... and the other mind is making
observations of you while you're doing it.

-You're like, "Oh, I wonder if-"
-Mm-hmm.

"... where am I gonna hold this on..." You
know? So it is fascinating that, that

your mind splits like that. But I'm like,
think, if you're doing something like

-that, how many minds do you have?
-Yeah.

Like, 'cause you've gotta be on autopilot
while you're playing 'cause you're

thinking about, "I've gotta make this next
switch to this thing."

-Mm-hmm.
-But then you're singing. I don't know.

-It's weird to me.
-It's like when you're talking and I'm

-thinking about the next question.
-No, I know. You're just not listening.

Well, I have thought about this. So the,
the 4 chords you're talking about are C,

-G, A minor, F. This is like 80% of-
-Yeah, the police

-... songs that have become on the-
-Yeah.

What, do you think there's something about

God's design in people that is, that we
love these 4 chords?

Yeah. Well, that's the whole point. It,
this... So when you look at music-

-It's a free question
-... when you look at... Yeah. When you

look at music and when you look at... They
talk about, you know, Leonardo da Vinci

-would do the, you know, the, the... What?
-I thought you were gonna say DiCaprio.

Leonardo DiCaprio- ... is like... Let
me... You're mentioning music chords. Let

me tell you about Leonardo DiCaprio-

... uh, in The Wolf of Wall Street. He
does this thing... No. Um,

no, the, uh, Leonardo da Vinci, uh, you
know, he was always trying to find a

mathematical equation to explain
everything. But there's, they... You know,

music, math, the, the idea that there's
these things, everyone... As if it's

hidden, right? We found some hidden order.

Um, well, there is order. There is
structure and design in things. But I'm

often struck by the fact that, like,

God just likes certain things. You know
what I mean?

-Yeah.
-Like, if you're making something out of

Legos, there's certain things you like to
do and-

-Mm-hmm
-... so why does he do it like that? Well,

he kind of just... That's... He just likes
that.

-Yeah.
-You know? And so... And I love when people

say, "Hey, we're, you know, we're 98% the
same as a pig." Or, "We're 98..." I'm

like, well, that...

You can move that... Like, that's like,
that's like saying, "You know who else

drinks water? Hitler."

-Hitler drinks water too.
-Yeah, you're basically all Hitler.

-Anyways, all right. So where are we at?
-Um...

-Or are you asking me questions?
-We're at 2,000 subs.

-Did I-
-I was just... You know, we got off on-

-A lot of subs
-... Escherian and chords. Uh, I do wanna

thank our sponsor of this podcast, Logos
Bible Software.

-Yes.
-The best Bible software on the planet. If

you wanna take your preaching or your
Bible study to the next level, get a lot

of- Get the Logos Bible Software and
your... It'll go this direction. We have a

60-day free trial link below. Shaunsey
put the nice little banner that comes up.

-It's gonna go shoo.
-Yeah, that's great.

It comes up. Use on there. And thanks for
Logos for sponsoring this

podcast, this show, this episode. But
yeah, man, let's get into questions for

this week. I have no more preamble. I
thought I had more preamble, but I don't.

-I think 2,000 subscribers-
-That's something

... on You- on the YouTube.

I, like, now that I'm starting to get into
the podcast thing, I want 2 1000000. Why

-don't we have 2 1000000 subscribers?
-I want 2 1000000.

You know why? 'Cause we're not
provocateurs.

-Like, if I just-
-That's true

... get up here and say, like, something
about, like... We did conspiracy theory

last week. I should've just... Instead of
saying I don't like conspiracy theories, I

should've said, "You believe the moon is
real?" Like, just-

-Wait
-... you just get... Put me on camera

-saying-
-The moon isn't-

-... crazy things.
-The moon isn't made of cheese?

Oh, it's the Jews. They did it. It's just
like, boom. We just get...

-Exactly.
-It's like,

yeah, did you know that it's actually
Jewish aliens that are controlling-

Well, there was... Like, so far, our, our
biggest clip that's gone viral, it's on

like 30, 40,000 views, is the one about
can a girl... Uh, can a guy... Should a

-guy ask the f- the-
-Oh

... his girlfriend's dads for his hand in
marriage? I said, "Matt, no one cares what

they were saying. They just wanna know if
they can sleep with this girl without

-asking their dad."
-Oh my goodness.

That's what

-culture cares about.
-Uh.

I do have a shout-out. Shaunsey just
texted in. Shout-out to Christiana.

Christiana, thanks for watching the
podcast. Glad you're a fan of it. Big

shout-out to you.

She's a faithful listener, loves the show.

Matt, you wanna say anything to
Christiana?

Uh, yeah. Awesome. I'm happy- ... that we
have...

Now, do you have a Lot of Words, uh,
podcast tattoo yet? Because that's really

-what...
-I'm... So within-

That's the big-

No. This is coming.

-This is coming. I have... So there's-
-Don't do that. If you do-

-No, there... This spot. So my friend is-
-Oh

... Tim. Tim is coming out from Nashville,
and I'm gonna fill this spot. So in 2, 3

weeks.

-We don't-
-Are you gonna have it say, "A Lot of Words

-podcast"?
-No, we're just gonna get flashed.

-Please do that.
-So our plan is to... He's coming, he's

getting in town like 8:00 PM. We're just
gonna go to some shop and put something

-stupid-
-Oh

-... on our bodies.
-My favorite, if you get a tattoo, it needs

to say... I saw this on the Trolls movie.

-A Muppet Baby?
-No. It says, "Thug life," but there's an X

-over the T, so it just says, "Hug life."
-Oh, that's good.

It's a low back tattoo.

-Oh.
-And I was just like, "It is so great."

-That's great.
-Oh, man. Or get a low back tattoo that

just says, "Trump," so it's a Trump stamp.

I do like... You keep saying that. The Tr-
I like the Trump stamp.

-All right, so-
-No, I was looking at... Was it...

Something Native American. I like
tomahawks and arrowheads-

-Oh, goodness
-... and skulls. I wanna cover my body in

-skulls. I don't know why.
-I don't... I'm not a big tattoo-

Every time I look at tattoos, I just want
skulls.

-I don't even want any more tattoos.
-I know. Well, that's 'cause you're a

grandpa. Do you have your grandpa hat?

-I always have grandpa hats on.
-No, where is it? Oh, you didn't bring it?

-No, I don't wanna-
-I wanted you to wear it.

-I... Yeah, I mean...
-Matt, we were bo- surfing this morning,

and he came out with this full-brimmed,
uh, Havana hat on. I go, "Well, man,

-that's a, that's a great grandpa-"
-It's called a Panama hat.

It's a great grandpa hat. And then our
friend who's much younger, he's like in

his maybe late 20s, early 30s, he didn't
know we had this conversation, and then

he's getting out of the water and Matt
puts the hat on. He goes, "Man, I love

-your grandpa hat." And it was so-
-It's just-

-... so validating
-... you know what? It's a stylish hat.

-Uh...
-You're validating.

-Yeah.
-What's it... It's not a Havana hat? What's

-it called?
-Well-

-Panama. Oh, same thing.
-Yeah, Panama hat.

-Panama .
-There's... They sell them in Old Town.

They make authentic... There's... You can
get them-

Yeah, muy authentico. All right, let's get
into questions for this week. 1st

question comes from Noneofyourbeeswax.

-Uh, his email is pickme@yourmom.com.
-Oh, dear. You shouldn't have read that.

-Um-
-I can read that. That- that's on here.

-Beeswax is great for mustache wax.
-The subject is, this is actually good,

minced oaths, God's name in vain message.
Here we go.

"I've been thinking a lot about the 3rd
commandment and keeping God's name holy.

I intentionally avoid using the Lord's
name in vain, but I'm curious about minced

oaths, like saying, 'Oh my gosh, oh my
goodness, oh my jeez-'"

-Yeah.
-"... 'jeez' in general, since these words

are derived from God and Jesus. Do you
think using them still skirts too close to

the line of irreverence? I love your
guidance on how to keep my casual speech

honoring God. Also, just wanna let you
know how much a blessing your ministry is

-to me."
-Ooh.

"I'm a faithful subscriber, watch every
week. I absolutely love the content you're

putting out. I feel incredibly blessed by
everything your team is doing, so keep up

the great work. Also, huge shout-out to
Chauncey. Looking forward to seeing your

faces someday."

Well, amen. Okay. That's... I like this
guy.

-Adulation.
-Yeah, adulation.

I mean, you... This, this came in at noon
today and I'm like, "You're going straight

-to the top."
-This...

You gotta know the secret to the top.
That's it.

-Yeah, know the secret.
-Um,

I think it's a great question. I, I'll say
this. I actually think about that a lot

as well,

and

I'm

not sure the best way to answer it. Uh,
because-

-Stumped him.
-Well, no, it's not that. It's that...

So he's right. So the big... To re- kind
of rephrase it a little bit, if you say,

"Oh my goodness,"

well, goodness is a, sort of a... We're
referring to Go- it's still a reference to

God. Or,

or, "Oh my gosh." Or you say, what do they
say?

-"Dad gummit," or something like that.
-Mm-hmm.

They'll say the things like...

It's just all like, uh,

it's all, uh, what, what do you call?
Mixed...

Yeah. It, it, it... You're basically
trying to say the same curse word, but you

-mix it up and everyone knows it.
-Mm-hmm.

It's why, like, if your child says, like,
"What the..."

and they just say nothing else, we're
like, "No, no, no. Don't do that." It's

not that... The word what and the are not
bad words.

It's just the intent, you can read it. So
I think the, the basic idea is that

profane speech

and blasphemy is one category of using the
Lord's name in vain, is making God's name

common. So the very fact that you're
avoiding to use His name in one sense is

acknowledging that His name is special, so
that's why you're saying things about it.

But the fact you're still referring to
His person with other names,

it's kind of both are true, right? You're
acknowledging His name's special, and yet

you're still referring to Him to curse.
And

I think this is really hard for me as w-
we all... 'Cause you get in habits.

And so, um,

I remember I got in this habit where
instead of... You know, I don't wanna say

a bad word. I don't, I don't curse,

but I'll be like, "God bless America."
'Cause I was like, just, "What's a good

thing to say?" But then I'm like, "Well,
that's saying it in vain." But I mean,

I... But then I want God to bless America.
So if I say, so if I say... So like, if

I'm doing something, I'm like, "God bless
America." I'm like, and I mean it. And I

c- and then I'll re- that 2nd part where I
say I mean it, it's like me remembering

not to make it

just a throwout term. But then I say it
after something bad. So I'm guilty. I'm

like, I'm trying to come up with something
better, like,

"Huzzah." You know, like, what do you do?
So I do think,

in general, yeah, we, we... If we're
trying to think about how we speak,

uh,

the idea that stuff comes out, you, I
think you have to plan ahead of time the

-words-
-Mm-hmm

... you're gonna say. And then the 1st few
times, it'll feel funny.

Uh, you know, so we've d- what works with
us, our kids, we're like, "What are we

gonna say when something cool happens?"
We'll say, "Amazing." And Lucille, my

5-year-old,

her vocabulary is phenomenal. She's
sitting there and she goes, "That was

terrifying." Rolls past by, she goes,
"That place looks gorgeous." And I'm like,

"Wait, what?" I'm, like, pausing to look.
Like, "Hey, Lucille, can you go do that?"

She goes, "Straight away, it's okay." And
I was like, "What? What did... Did you see

that on a show?" Or like, "What is
happening?" So the practice is good for

you to do, and I think in general if we
can avoid

saying those kinds of things.

Um, but I do think it is, it is... You
know, God knows our heart. We're not being

legalists, but I think the a- the attempt
to...

Like, basically if I use your name

when every time something bad happens, I'm
like, "Oh, Brett," every time I-

-Mm-hmm.
-You know, so...

What about... Yeah, I mean, you mentioned
the avoidance. I haven't thought about

that category, but sometimes it's like,
"What in the world?"

Yeah, right, right. So that's the same
thing. Like-

-The intent is...
-But it's like, look, you don't wanna be...

It... You're not... What in the world is
probably a good one.

Yeah.

-You know?
-That's my go-to. That's why I was like,

"Is that okay?" I'm not...

I mean, that's my point. Like, I think
that's like... That, maybe that's one. I

think the idea that you thought about it
ahead of time, you're like, "That's a

-great one."
-Yeah.

-Because you're not referring to God.
-Mm-hmm.

You're like, "What in the world?" Um,

you know, if you said, "Holy holes in a
donut, Batman." Like, that's not good

because... What? These, these are stuff
that I've come up with.

These are... Holy holes in a donut,
Batman.

These are the ones... When I've tried to
come up with some, I'm like, "These are

the ones I come up with." And I'm like,
"Wait, but that's still talking about

holiness, which is forgot." So that
doesn't work. But I think what in the

world... Um, but it does sound almost

like the curse word, but I'm like, "Who
cares?" Like, there's not... At the end of

the day, we're, we're trying to deal with
our speech, and James deals with that in

the Bible where he says,

uh, you know, "Out of our mouth comes
terrible things."

-Mm-hmm.
-And so I think acknowledging that terrible

things are gonna come out of your mouth
and planning to make them less terrible is

-probably a good-
-Yeah

-... strategy.
-Mm-hmm.

-So yeah. That's a great question.
-Yeah. Fantastic equation, question. None

of your beeswax. Love the name. If you
keep sending in more questions, please

-continue to use that name.
-And send me beeswax mustache wax. It's

-great.
-Yeah, beeswax is nice.

-Mm-hmm.
-Um, all right. Next question comes from

-Kat. Uh, spelled with a K.
-Ooh.

So yeah, subject is convictions. Should
Christians feel-

-With a K.
-Similar vein as the last question. Should

Christians feel convicted watching
obviously sinister horror thriller movies?

Ooh.

I don't know.

It depends. I mean, I think

the... When Paul in the Bible talks about
the idea that all things are lawful, but

not all things are helpful or edifying, I
think that's really the category we wanna

be in for that kind of question.

In other words, uh, you can view all sorts
of things. I mean, viewing things, y- you

know... Think about it this way.

When you would go in and, and-

So, so I think sometimes we, we have a, a
view in our minds of what God wants us to

see and not see, and we sort of say,
"Well, I don't wanna see any violence,"

or, "I don't wanna see..." The Bible
doesn't say that at all. In fact, the very

idea of the sacrificial system was to not
only see, but to participate in the

violence in some way. People forget this
in Leviticus one. You know, when you

brought an animal to the, to be sacrificed
and you, you, the, the, you would come in

and you'd place your hand on the animal's
head. And then we always have the

impression that the priest would cut the
animal's throat. Um, it's, that's not

true. The priest hands you the knife

and this is a Bronze Age knife. I mean,
you got... So the priest hands you the

knife and then you cut its throat. Well,
most people, that would be a horrifying,

traumatic experience, right? Like, hey,
here's an animal that's cute. It's a, you

know, one-year-old lamb.

You're gonna cut its throat. Um, in fact,
I, I used to do videos. I'm, I'm, I'm

never going back to it, but I did have a
video once where it just showed this guy

and he had a lamb and he had the knife and
the music, and everyone was like, "Oh."

And it just never... It cut off, but I'm
like, "This is what you saw all the time."

So I think on that level,

most people would be like,

if you see an animal death like that,
people are like, "Okay, warning, you're

gonna see something hardcore."

So what we watch shapes us. And so horror
and stuff, I think it depends how it's

depicted. Like, for example,

this question's deeper in one level.
Cartoons, where violence in cartoons is

just humorous, is probably more... It,
it's worse for you in some ways than

violence that's depicted accurately.
Because if I'm constantly seeing Wile E.

Coyote drop from giant heights and just
bounce up in the air... Now, let's get

realistic though. It's a cartoon, it's
funny, it's whatever. Um,

you're not desensitizing yourself to
violence, but there's... Things can work

that way. They, they, their, their intent
matters. And so if you see these things

and you find yourself being
desensitized... I think in general, we

watch so much s- content in general as
people. People didn't used to do this.

-Mm-hmm.
-So what you're feeding yourself with is

not... is a bigger question. But yeah, s-
particularly with horror and thriller, my

personal take is... I'll give you a couple
things, like just quick takes that help

me out.

Um, I'm not a huge... I'm not a s- a
stress case when it comes to s- like a

movie depicting violence. I'll, I'll let
my kids watch

movies that show violence. I'm not even
opposed to gore

i- if it was like in a fighting movie or
something. But I do,

uh, draw the line at maybe frightening
type thriller things. You know, I don't

want them to have images of a killer
chasing them down a hallway or something.

Um, and then for myself, uh... But, but
someone will say, "Well, then why would

you be more prone to be okay with that?"
But then maybe... I'm, I draw the line

-very hard on like nudity-
-Mm-hmm

... um, or even just a lot of sexual sort
of like

people in very provocative outfits. Like,
no, no, no, right? Even in-

-Yeah
-... like video games, like we're playing

-video games-
-Because it's not, it's not fake nudity is.

Yeah, nudity is a real nudity-

-Yeah
-... but it's fake violence. Okay.

-Yeah.
-Um, but

what about things like thrills and
thrillers and killers and stuff? I think

that when someone depicts a movie, they
sometimes glorify in those things. I don't

like that either. So like when the movies
that try to get you inside the head of a

killer, I'm like, "That's gross. Why would
I wanna be..." Whatever's true, noble,

right, think on these things. So I do
think it's good that we watch movies where

the good guy wins. A lot of horror movies
are set up where you're actually rooting

for the killer. You're rooting for the,
for Jason or... You know, um, I don't

watch those, like the Saw movies. I don't
watch. I never-

-Mm-hmm
-... I never wanted to. I think it's bad

for you to watch them. But I, I don't
wanna say something is a sin and

categorize something as a sin and go
further than the Bible. I think that's...

It's, it's better to say, is it edifying?
Is it good for you? And there's probably

Christians out there that have watched
these things and they're sort of more

humorous about it.

Um, I will say your ability to watch
fictional things and stories and get into

it is a sign of intelligence. Uh, in, in
other words, if you're sensitive to

certain things, it doesn't mean you're an
idiot, it doesn't mean you're wrong. You

might be... You're just really smart. You
can really vividly picture it, you know?

Um, but like

-the Blair Witch-
-Yeah, I was gonna say, uh, there's... I

have a follow-up question about what about
the o- occult stuff, Blair Witch Project,

uh, anything to do with like Satan's
angels, demons?

Yeah. I love Blair Witch. I thought it was
genius. It's, it's, it's one of the

most... But I also can say like I thought
it was genuinely one of the most

terrifying movies ever. And a lot of
people saw it and they're like, "Ah,

whatever."

Um, I think when you say whatever, I just
think you haven't really gotten into it.

Like if you have ever been lost in the
woods, you can... Like the tiniest

thing... Look, we've seen that rock pile
and it was just done so well, the found

footage stuff. So I'm okay with that. It's
not... It, it, it, it's all about the

setup. It's all about the thing. I think
if they had a movie where they're just

showing some witch catching someone and
sawing them in pieces- ... I wouldn't

-watch that, right? So-
-That probably exists.

Yeah. No, that's what I'm saying.
That's... So like if it's pornographic-

-Mm-hmm
-... and I don't mean that with just sex.

-Like if it's pornographic violence-
-Yeah

... I guess is what I, what I'm against.

Um, and how about this? If... Maybe this
is a good way to say it. If it's

pornographic violence, if it's
pornographic nudity, obviously,

-pornographic terror-
-Mm-hmm

... anything that's, that's taking
something and,

and making it, um, just

to the max to,

to desensitize, to dis- deconstruct, you,
yeah, I don't wanna watch that. And I

think as people that watch content, we're,
we're so passive in content. That's,

that's something you gotta watch out for.
But I'll be honest, I think the things

that are the most dangerous are the things
that we're not paying attention to. The

basic storyline. So for example, every
single movie, every single Disney movie is

about acceptance now. Every single movie
is about believe in yourself. Every single

movie... Which brings up,

you know, the Americana thing. So we
talked about Dolly Parton, um, you know,

just passed away, and she's a great
American icon. And so everyone celebrated

her 'cause she was liked on all sides. She
was somewhat apolitical.

Uh, and so everyone kinda likes Dolly
Parton. She dies and everyone's like, "Oh,

that's really sad." All right, great. You
know, like that's a... It's, it's

something that all Americans kind of agree
with. But I think what happens is people

wanna make her into a saint. Like her and
Hulk Hogan are hanging out with John

MacArthur or something. Like, uh, I, I
don't... I think that Christians need to

know when you see the meme 1st, 1st of all
that-

-Like, don't respond to the bait. Like-
-Mm-hmm

... whether Dolly Parton's in heaven or
not or what her beliefs about Jesus, like,

that's one of those don't pag- pass, grab
a passing dog by the ear moments. Like-

-Mm-hmm
-... uh,

I don't know Dolly Parton. I don't know
her faith. I, and so if someone says,

"Well, I don't know. Let's figure out what
she believed." I'm like, "Why? I'm not

interested in that." She seemed like a
cool person. But I think the immediate,

like, celebrating the sainthood, cultures
do this all the time,

and it's more dangerous to just...

Basically, humanism is dangerous. The,
the, the picture of you could have a

society where everything's in order, no
crime, everyone goes to church every week,

but there's no Jesus, and that's a
scarier place than a place that actually

looks like hell where people hear about
Jesus. So-

-Yeah
-... I, I guess that's my point. The, the,

the risk factor is watching a movie... Uh,
and this, in some ways, The Chosen can be

-really scary because-
-Mm-hmm

... when it takes a Bible story

and it gets so close to the real thing,
but then twists the emphasis at the end,

again, it, it, those things sometimes are
more scary to me than, like, the obvious

terror. And then one last thing I'll say,

um, when a movie shows something and it
shows the consequence of that thing,

sometimes it might be uncomfortable, but
sometimes it's valuable. Like, if you see

something that doesn't look good, um,
well, okay. You know, like, that's

helpful because it's not glorifying the
thing. But also, do we need to see it?

Like, I don't need to see a drug movie
where the guy does drugs. I see him do

drugs, and I see him be like, "Okay." You
know? Like, storytelling,

-I could go on, but...
-Yeah. No, I think your point about, yeah,

like, I grew up in the exact scenario.
You're talking about rural America. It's

so much harder to share the gospel in the
Bible Belt than it is-

-Mm-hmm
-... h- in almost any city.

Um, to follow up with that, though,
thinking about books, you're well-read,

I'm well-read. My favorite genre outside
of theology and the Bible is horror.

Stephen King's my favorite author. I've
read his books a bunch of times.

What do you do when you get to a point in
a book that is... 'Cause I, I think, I

mean, maybe not nudity, but there's,
there's books I read that have sex scenes,

and obviously your imagination can
sometimes be far worse-

-Yeah
-... than what you're looking at. Do you,

like, skip through them? If it gets really
gory in a book you're reading, do you

skip through that, or how do you handle
that-

-Yeah. Well-
-... or how do you approach books?

So here's the thing. I wanna be really
careful because-

This is for, like, the 4 people who read
them on our -

Yeah. Well, let me... I'll give you an
example, though. So Game of Thrones, I can

use an example. So I read the 1st, uh,
the whole, the 1st book.

-They're books, right? And, um-
-Didn't know that.

-You didn't know that?
-No.

-What?
-I haven't seen it, I think.

They were books. George R. R. Martin wrote
them, and it was, like, kind of what

-they'd call, like, grimdark.
-Tr- tr- Pastor Tr- but it's like a...

Pastor Trey is, he's like, he, he read
the... That's... Now I know. I didn't know

because he read the books, and so he had
to watch it, but he used Vidangel.

-Ugh.
-And he's like, "Yeah, it was like 4

-minutes about a dragon."
-Yes, yes. And I... So I'll say this,

though. I c- I read the 1st book.

I was uncomfortable the whole time. I
skipped a bunch-

-Hmm
-... of, of things. And when the 2nd one

started, I stopped.

And for me personally,

I think that the books were pornographic
in the worst way.

-Right.
-And I'm okay in reading to know, like, if

you can skip through stuff, but some of
the detail... But it wasn't even just

-that. It was just there's a pessimism-
-Mm-hmm

... in his writing that I thought was bad.
So I think you can kinda get to it. I

think there's smut. Just like anything,
there's a line. Like, what's the game?

What is... When someone's writing stuff
that's just ma- made to just... It's

pornography. And so a lot of women read
the... a lot of the books that are out

-there, it's the descriptive nature of it-
-Yeah. Mm-hmm

... where you're just, you're just
lingering and-

-Mm-hmm
-... going onto this stuff. Um,

-you know, I'm not into that, obviously.
-Yeah.

And if a- an author, even Stephen King...
I actually, I can say I've probably not

read more S- I've started and stopped
reading Stephen King more-

-Mm-hmm
-... more than a lot of people.

Um,

-but like, for example, like, Salem's Lot.
-Mm-hmm.

-That was pretty tame. Like, he doesn't-
-Yeah

-... get too gnarly. But It-
-Mm-hmm

... you know, has a scene that they didn't
put in the movie.

No.

-And when you get into it-
-I don't think they could've.

But I mean, I read that when I was in high
school.

-Yeah, it's crazy.
-You know? And so I don't know. Like, I

think that it's, it's the same as the
movies and, and it can be more vivid.

At the end of the day, your ability to
decide what's edifying, the, the less

you know of the Bible, I'll say this, the
more you better put handrails up that seem

arbitrary. Like, you gotta, like, listen
to people and put rules up. The better you

know the Bible, the more you can engage
things

and be smart about it. Um, but,

but there's nothing wrong with just simply
saying, "Yeah, I'm not sure this is

right." I do think throwing genres out is
like,

um, if that's what you gotta do, I just
wouldn't... Y- you just don't... It's,

it's a big deal to put on somebody
something the Bible doesn't, right?

At the same time,

putting boundaries up knowing, "Hey, this,
I'm struggling with this," doesn't... You

don't have to explain it. You can just
simply say, "Hey, this isn't for me."

It's the Lord is the one that you matter,
not other people as your audience. So when

you, when you're sitting there saying,
"Well, I don't need to do that," you know,

okay.

So...

Thanks, Matt. Uh, if you have a question,
go to louderwithpodcast.com. Click on the

Ask a Question button. Send it in. We're
gonna stop right there so we can get into

today's topic. Uh, Will, I'll get to your
question next week, I promise. I told him

I'd get one on, but that's okay. We're too
far in the podcast. Will-

-Okay
-...

he even, he even sent a lot of adulation.
I said-

-Oh
-... "I'll get it on this week if you

-adulate," and he did.
-Oh, great.

And I'm still not gonna get it on. Just
gonna wait another week. That's okay.

-More adulation.
-More adulation. Um- ... I do wanna get

into this week's topic, and I thought I
had something else to mention. I didn't. I

-should've. All right.
-What are we talking about?

Well, Matt, this week's topic is Christian
nationalism.

-Oh.
-Last week, you gave me a hard time 'cause

I do make you define things on the spot.
So this time, um, I did s- a lot of

digging on this episode and watched a
bunch of debates and things like that.

-Wow. You're more prepared than me, then.
-Yeah. What I found out was that

none of these people who believe this can
actually define it. They like to use the

-word nuance a lot.
-Did you say define it or to, to find it?

-Define. Define.
-Yeah.

Define.

Uh,

-aspartame-
-Your mind is just making up things-

-As- aspar- aspartame
-... for a second. I'm gonna ask- ... you

the questions 'cause you're prepared. And
so I'm just gonna-

No way. We're not doing this. Aspartame.
What'd you call it?

-Yeah.
-Yeah, right.

-Aspartame.
-Uh, so I'm gonna read a little bit of just

some things that I found, and then I'll
get to you.

Wait, what is the real word?

-Aspartame.
-It is a real word. I feel like that's the

-wrong word.
-I know.

Okay.

-Yeah.
-Sparta means better.

Yeah. Sasquatch. I still love that word.

Um, this is... I eventually had to go to
ChatGPT and just be like, "Hey, can you

aggregate everything and give me a
definition I actually work, can I get,

-that I can-
-For Christian nationalism.

... that I can work with?" It says that,
"Christian nationalism is the, is the

belief that a nation should consciously
recognize Christianity as true and order

its public institutions, laws, culture,
and national life accordingly.

That signifi- that is significantly more
specific than simply saying Christians

should vote according to Christian
convictions or government should

-acknowledge objective morality."
-Yeah.

"Stephen Wolfe, one of the most prominent
contemporary advocates-"

-Ugh.
-"... summarizes his position as a nation

recognizing itself as a Christian people
and arranging its laws and customs

accordingly. His more technical definition
describes Christian nationalism as a

national action through civil laws and
social customs intended to secure that

nation's earthly and heavenly good

in Christ. Doug Wilson, one of your
biggest fans, defines it somewhat

differently. He argues that secularism
cannot provide a transcendent foundation

for society and that society's
transcendent anchor should thereby be the

true God." And so I kind of nailed this to
like a one, 2, 3. So Christian nationals,

they... We all believe Christ is king
over the nations. We all believe that

civil governments are accountable to God.
The big question is, did Christ commission

the church to Christianize civil
governments?

Well, I just, I'll be... L- let's...

We gotta go, take a step back for a
second-

-Yeah
-... because you just said a lot of things.

I said a lot of words this time.

You just said a lot of words. So, um, all
right. So the definition you gave...

Yeah. That definition you gave was-

-You hate it.
-I hate it so much.

-I knew you would.
-Because-

That's why, that's why I ask you to define
things.

-Yeah. It's, it's-
-See, I d- I ask you, then you're upset. I

give them to you, then you're upset. I
mean, there's no winning here.

-I'm just, I'm just upset.
-I'm dying over here.

-Yeah.
-You're just, um, an angry old grandpa.

The, the problem with that definition is
it's so vague

as to... It, it doesn't distinguish. That
definition doesn't distin- as you just

mentioned, it doesn't distinguish any
Christian... It... Basically, that

definition makes every founder of the
nation a Christian nationalist. It makes

every Christian today a Christian
nationalist because every Christian

believes that in the presuppositions of...
Like, it, it's too vague where the, the

tent is so big, in other words, it doesn't
distinguish, which is why guys are

constantly trying to make nuance because
they're all trying to, like, sort of

outflank one another in their nuance. And
so it, it's, it's too vague as to, to be

helpful. Um, the definition I would give
for Christian nationalism is really

simple. It, it's statism.

Christian nationalism is statism.

It is the idea that the church and the
state need to merge somehow

their goals, their mission.

And, and, and, and so I wanna make this
really clear. It's not nuanced. It's clear

that the church and the state, it's, it's
geopolitics is the word I use all the

time, but statism, sacralism, whatever you
wanna... The idea that the state and the

church need to be one. Um, I've covered
this in other things, but let's just re-

recast this a tiny bit. Remember, Islam is
geopolitical. It is the church... Or I'm

sorry, the Islam is i- not just a
religion. It is a, uh, a book about what?

The state, about laws and the state and
government and land and the way Islam is

spread. Taqiyya, you lie and, and you
spread and you come in with a sword. It

is... It expands geopolitically from the
start. So Islam is a geopolitical

religion. It is a state religion. So
there's no... You don't have a secular

state with a Muslim. Any Muslim wants the
place they're in to be a caliphate. They

want it to do that. There's ev- whether
you're a casual Muslim or not, it is a

state religion. Judaism is a state
religion. The, the whole thing with Israel

and the land and the stuff, it's, it's
state. So you've got... What do we mean by

geopolitics? Geography, politics,

armies, land, treasuries. Okay.

Um, the Cath- Catholic Church

is geopolitical. It is a church state. So
remember, Rome and the state, they come

together. That's geopolitical. Um, but the
New Testament is not. That's the whole

point that the... And it's made explicit
throughout the New Testament that the

church is not part of the state. Um, Paul
talks about it in Romans, you know, 13:40,

the whole thing, like, basically that we
are dual citizens and that we're supposed

to be good citizens, so that we'll get
into that,

um, but that we're citizens of a kingdom
to come. Now, Christian nationals say, "We

agree."

The difference is d- at what sense, in
what way does the church wield power? And

here's the big payoff, and it... and we
have to get to this before we get to that

question. It... We have to.

Right now, we're sitting in a historical
moment where, um, we've just come through

basically where, like, kind of reformed
theology

has been, has had its big popular moment.
And I think we're at the tail end of its

im- impact in culture. Um,

I... We would be considered reformed
because I'm a Calvinist, okay? But for a

lot of guys, reformed theology, you think
of Westminster Confessions, you think of,

uh,

sort of the basic picture of this comes
from covenant theology,

amillennialism, and, and really what we're
dealing with, with Christian nationalism

is post, radical post-millennialism. And
if you're, if you're lost right now, let

me go back to that definition. State,
state, state, state, state. It's just

statism. So remember, early
premillennialism, uh, the early Christians

did not think that the state had anything
to do with the church. They were waiting

for a kingdom to come. You see this in
Acts. Is this... Are you gonna restore the

kingdom now or not? And Jesus doesn't...
He says, "No, it's not... No, but in the

meantime, do X, Y, or Z." In other words,
the whole picture in Acts is that they're

gonna go out and make disciples of all
nations. Oh, dear, we'll deal with that.

Um, of all ethnicities is what it means,
of all ethnos, and of all kinds of people

in all nations around the world. And we're
gonna go do that,

and he... But this isn't the kingdom,

right? We're waiting for him to come and
establish the kingdom. And I think the,

that's the 1st part. Well, the 1st century

after this, right after this is written,
when they 1st go out, the Christians were

persecuted. They didn't have any
protection. There was no protected status

because they weren't... The, the Jewish
people were persecuting them and the

Romans and the rest were persecuting
because they were out on their own. And so

Christians were a persecuted people. And
so all of the promises about Christ's

return and all the way they're reading
just... This isn't just about Revelation.

This is about just even the Old Testament
promises in Zechariah and the basic

things, the kingdom to come, were all read
as a future event that was yet to happen.

And none of them read, "Oh, no, this was
all fulfilled in AD 70." None of them. In

fact, for 300 years, for the 1st 300 years
of Christian writing, they- For all 300,

you cannot find one author, not one

at all, referring to postmillennialism,
amillennialism. They were all

premillennial to a person. Every single
one was a, what they call a futurist. That

doesn't mean they were dispensational.
They were all premillennial. Why?

Well, because of course, the state... You-
you're, you're not living the kingdom

when your friend's getting lit on fire by
Nero or, or when your friends are being

fed to lions. You're not like, "Oh, this
is really the kingdom here." Um, you're

recognizing that you're a persecuted
people and the kingdom is yet to come.

Now, a lot of people say, "Well, that's
pessimistic." It's not pes- it was just

real. Like, persecution was happening. And
then all of a sudden, right around 300,

you start to see writing that starts to
talk about the church and the state as one

entity. Well, what happened? Well, at
that same time, you had a guy named Origen

who started using what's called the
allegorical method of interpretation. So

Augustine wrote City of God right around
this time. And even though Augustine said

a lot of good things, Origen's algorithm-
a-allegorization starts to make its way

through things.

And what's that... What's, what's
synonymous with all this was

Constantine and the church becoming the
Holy Roman Church.

So the Roman Catholicism really started
with Constantine when they merged the

church and the state, and Rome became...
the church became the state. Now, all of a

sudden, Christians had political power.

All of a sudden, Christians, for the first
time in 300 years, and the New Testament

Christians that had been following the
Bible, all the promises now, they had

what? Government,

boundaries, treasure, armies,

geopolitics.

And so all of a sudden, they started to
think to themselves, "Well, you know who

else had that? Israel did.

Maybe God's promises to Israel were
fulfilled by us."

Now, when, when people get into the, the
theology of all this, like, we could get

down to the Bible on it. Like, uh, trust
me, I c- I've been doing this for 20

years. We can go in the weeds.

Jesus is the true Israel, yes, we're in...
And, but that true Israel, when it talks

about it, he then is supposed to save
Israel and Judah, so that doesn't make

Israel a nation that's ceased to exist.
Okay.

Um, but my point was, once they merged the
state, they start to say, "Well, maybe

the promises to this physical nation are
spiritual promises. Maybe the promises

about Israel having land,

um, isn't really about Israel. It's about
us, the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe we're

the new priesthood. Uh, you know, maybe
we're the ones..." And so the whole

Catholic Church was the church and the
state. It was the state. And so power

corrupts immensely in this way. And so
this was the Dark Ages. I mean, the Middle

Ages from 300 up to the Reformation, um,

was just... it's a hard part of history to
read. I mean, and so the Catholic Church

was constantly moving in the wrong
direction. So people would try to reform

it, and then it would mess up, and then
they'd persecute a guy. The Reformation

wasn't to reinvent something new. It was
to essentially say, "The Catholic Church

has gone the wrong way. Let's reform it."

It, it... So it wasn't saying, "We're
gonna break off." It was just saying,

"We're gonna reform it. The Catholic
Church is wrong." And what did it do? It

went back to the solas, sola scriptura,
sola fide, sola Christa. So the, the whole

picture was to reform these things.

So when the Reformation happened, right,
1500 or something, they reformed all this,

but they left the statism. In other
words, Calvin gets a lot of crap for

saying, well, he didn't send missionaries.
Well, that's because that was the state's

job, right? They just... In, in other
words, this is inherited Romanism. So

covenant theology, in a lot of ways, is
just an inheritance from the Catholic

Church. And my, my contention is, were
they to continue reforming with the same

principle, semper reformanda, they would
reject statism. All right. That's the

brief history lesson. Let's go back a
step.

Here we are today, and a lot of folks have
adopted sort of a covenant theology,

which is a replacement theology,
how-however you wanna look at it. And at

the same time, we're dealing with a lot of
global things that are happening that

have happened multiple times in history,
where what do you see rising up? Well, 1st

of all, we have a big technological
innovation. Um, we see a lot of tech

happening, which is pr- giving us a lot of
opportunity to see massive change. And so

futurists, people thinking about the
future and the possibilities, wow, that's

amazing. At the same time, you're seeing
Islam really push into the, the West,

right, through immigration and the crazy-
craziness of immigration. You're seeing a

lot of Islam pushing in. Um, and so you're
seeing a lot of hatred of the Jews across

both sides of the political spectrum.
Everyone's against the Jews. This is very

similar to 1938, right, before World War I
and II. Postmillennialism was popular, so

that, that idea that we just mentioned,
the state and the church was popular at

the same time that everyone's kind of
hating on the Jews from all over the

place. Um, at the same time, you know, you
see sort of a geopolitical entity. Well,

the reason why this is happening is, I
think, that the church wants state power

as a means to confront the state power of
Islam, the state power of, you know,

Israel that they hate and all this stuff.

So that's the draw, okay? And so you
mentioned Steven Wolfe or whatever. The

guy is an absurd provocateur. Everything
he says irritates me. Um,

I think these guys aren't gonna be popular
in the next few years. I think their,

their movement's at a peak.

And so

having given you the whole lesson,
postmillennialism is the idea that, look,

the churches replace things. Christ is,
uh, already kind of come back, uh, given

us everything. We're gonna make everything
better and better and better into the

future. And it blends sort of our Great
Commission with the idea of building

society. And that's kind of back to your
question. The Great Commission was to make

disciples. Um, it wasn't to build
societies. Now, you might say that making

disciples builds societies. Sure. But our
task is to make disciples. It's not the

byproduct. It's the disciple-making. And
so,

uh, like, what people are doing, they're
trying to flip it and say, "Well, no,

you're making disciples of nations, so
we're really building nations."

This is where it, it... you need to fight
this. When... Only extreme people are

trying to do this, and ridiculous Joel
Webbon did this and is trying to say that

the gospel is Christian nationalism, and

it is...

It is as asinine... Like, he's
disqualified.

This is such a stupid statement. It, it's
an uneducated statement and the idea, the,

the idea that the, that the gospel

is to,

is a state apparatus, is to build a
Christian nation, that that's the gospel,

um, well,

that's a gospel issue then and you're
wrong. The gospel is not that. The gospel

is the,

you know, the life, death, burial,
resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is, uh,

the work of Christ, uh, to, to make and
build the church, uh, that he's coming

back for the church. He... the bride of
Christ, the building of Christ, the body

of Christ. Like, this picture of the
state,

um, it's,

it's basically this little theological
movement that's just outgrown its...

it's... they're so over their skis right
now. And so I've said a lot. I don't know

-if I caught us up.
-You did, yeah. I was glad you touched on

the, the Great Commission section. I do
wanna ask you the difference between

Christian nationalism,

-uh, patriotism, and nationalism.
-Yeah. Um,

so

1st of all, the Christian nationalist
guys, they're, they're very online, if

that makes sense. And so I guess we're
online 'cause we're doing this, but-

... but what I mean by that is a lot of
people that are in, like, online

think that, you know, X and Facebook and
social media is, uh, Reddit, whatever

you're looking at, that that's the real
world. You know, they need to touch grass

type thing. Christian nationalists,
they're not actually a big movement, but

they're very big online. So they're
outsized in their movement. So they are

gonna police each other and go to each
other's things, but it's not a huge... it,

it's not as big a movement as you think.
In fact, I think it's a pathetic little

parasitic movement that's following the
culture right now. So you've got the Hasan

Pikers, you've got the guy... So let's go
back. Nationalism as an ism,

I think if, if you can make a really
modest definition of it, is that you

should be pro whatever nation you're in.
That, that's it. So as opposed to

globalism, I'd say nationalism would be
like, "Hey, I'm, I want my country to do

well."

Um, Jeremiah tells us that, "Pray for the
peace of the nation you're in."

-Mm-hmm.
-Okay, great. Um, we already have

established the Bible. We covered this
already, like borders and these things

are... You can make a really modest thing.
You could define nationalism in such a

way that makes it seem nefarious and
gross, um, but that's, I think, a basic

definition of just you wanna, you know,
you want your nation to do well. Like,

that's, I think, a fair thing. Um,

what was... and then you said Christian
nationalism. The idea that-

Well, na- nationalism, I think you, you
just did patriotism. Nationalism,

-patriotism, and Christian nationalism.
-Yeah. So nationalism, I think, gets

into... you start to get into some, some
pejoratives. Like, you get into some

issues where,

um,

what's... how... do you want your nation
to be 1st in what way? Like, so patriotism

is... I, I kind of blend in with
nationalism a lot-

-Yeah
-... um,

as the positive side of it, I guess you
could try to say.

-Yeah. Sure.
-Uh,

and whereas nationalism, the word is often
kind of more of a pejorative. It's sort

of the negative side of it. It's, it's,
it's sort of an allegiance-

-Mm-hmm
-... that you want your nation to be. The

problem with a lot of these views is that
it depends on the context they're being

used in. But let me get to Christian
nationalism for a second to distinguish

it. The big issue with Christian
nationalism is easier to define. It's not

harder because it's the, it's the linking

of 2 different categories that are not the
same. One is the church, which is, again,

the body of Christ, the building of
Christ, and the bride of Christ with the

nation.

And we are a nation that has been built on
Christian presuppositions, and it's those

Christian presuppositions that have led
to us to have a... Like, in other words, a

secular nation

is a byproduct of reformation thinking.

And so what's happened with Christian
nationalists, they wanna go back to the

early reformation where it was very
Catholic.

They want everything to become Christian
and the state. But a normal secular state,

and you look at the founders, is built on
the presupposition that people made in

God's image. Here's the pr- here's these
ideas. It was

the United States of America, the
Constitution, the checks and balances, and

the secularism are wonderful byproducts
of the reformation, right?

What most people would argue is they say,
"If you don't believe in Christian

nationalism, what's your hope? Some
secular state that's gonna do all this?"

I'm like, "Yes, actually, it is."

And the argument when people say is,
"Well, why would you hope in a secular

state?" I'm like, "I'm not hoping in any
state, you idiot."

Like, stop putting words in my mouth.
Like, Christ the King is coming and he's

bringing a per- he's bringing a perfect
kingdom. I'm not doing it. I'm waiting for

that.

Uh, Peter says this in 2 Peter, "What sort
of people should we be waiting for and

hastening the day that he's gonna come
where everything's gonna be burned up and

he's gonna make everything new?" So we
have a task here. Now, someone would say,

"Well, what's the hope for nations? And
that's just pessimism. You just do

nothing." I mean, again, these are all
straw men.

Again, I'm gonna make disciples, I'm gonna
be faithful, and the byproduct of that is

it- society can change and it will change
at times. Um, but sometimes it won't. My,

my aim is still the same, making
disciples. I would love to see society...

I'm gonna vote a certain way, I'm gonna do
this. But a secular nation, the reason I

like that is that I want the nation to
have Christian presuppositions. Okay,

great. How do I get that? Well, by making
disciples. And I want us to pass laws that

are based on Christian presuppositions.
Well, how does that happen? By voting.

And so notice what the ar- argument is.
They- their end is not... is already

defined, and so the means to that end
becomes me- messed up. This happens in

church growth movements. When people don't
like big church, they say, "What's the

whole goal of church?" "Well, we wanna

build the church where more people come."

And you say, "Okay, if that's your aim, is
it good that people come to church?"

"Yes." But if your aim is that, then all
of a sudden, who cares if you preach the

gospel now? Maybe just entertain people,
maybe just this. You're just trying to get

butts in seats. So this mission drift is,
if I could be in the nicest way possible,

is what Christian nationalism is about.
They're taking something that might be a

byproduct, they're making it the goal, and
losing the gospel. And in that process,

it means political reform, power, the
political power is baptized as Christ's

method in this world. And it's, it's
insulting to the work of Christ. It's

insulting to the omnipotence of Christ.
It's insulting to the gospel that spreads

through our own weakness.

And in... further, in the 1st century, the
1st century was, was full of mobs and

dumbness and silliness, and yet the
Christian-

... message spread like wildfire in normal
lives of people living normal, upright

lives and, and in homes and going
through... Like, none of it was spread

through political power.

They want the political power of the
Catholic Church, and they want, they want

it. And, and the reasons why is they say,
"Well, hey, I don't like the

paganism I see." Okay. "And I don't like
Islam, which is geopolitical." What, so

you want us to be just taken over and
become a caliphate? "No, I don't."

Oh, so you think the secular state's
supposed to stand up?

"Yeah."

Well, they've done a terrible job. "I
agree."

So what do you wanna do? Like, I should
vote differently.

Should you be involved in politics?
Absolutely.

But my goal is the Gospel. And so every
time I'm talking to a person who's a

Muslim or I'm talking to a person who's an
atheist, they're, they are not my

opponent. They are my mission field. And
so I need to work that out. Politically

though, if I start saying, "Okay, I'm
building a Christian nation," they're my

opponent. They're my enemy even. And, and
I think in, in "Mere Membership," the book

that everyone should read, one of the
things I was saying, I, I made a small

paragraph in there. I think one of the
issues is because a lot of these guys,

they've neglected to see their identity
properly, which is what the communion

table's supposed to help us do.

They're searching for... A lot of young
men in particular are searching for a

Christian identity because we don't, we
don't elevate the table enough as this is

who we are,

so that they're looking for a way for us
to say, "Well, who are we?" And so because

they won't find it in the, in the cup and
the bread,

in the, the gathered body, like, "This is
my body. This together," like, discern the

body, it's us. Because they won't see
that as their identity, they start to say,

"Well, the Christian identity is gonna
see, be seen in things like blood and

soil." And so that's why Christian
nationalism is so often linked with white

Christian nationalism or ethnocentrism. So
for example, I mentioned Joel Webbon. I

mean, he's just a raging racist,

you know? He talks about mixed races all
the time. I mean, the guy has gone off the

rails. And we know him. Uh, we, we, we've
met him. We knew him at the time. I'm

like, I'm not saying anything about
salvation. I don't... Especially because

he's so online, I'm sure this is like... I
don't wanna debate anybody or talk, but

I'm just... My, my point though is the,

the, the preoccupation with race, with
blood and soil and laws and baptizing

power,

well, you know who does that is Islam. You
don't spread Christianity by the sword.

You don't sp- spread conversion by the
sword, and you don't rule,

uh, over people. Like he even said, "We
need to seize power," is the words that he

used. We have to seize power and take
away freedoms to pass Christian laws. And

I'm like, and then what?

So you have a society that's ruled and
what? Christ is gonna come... None of them

are believers.

It, it... In other words, if you could...
What's ironic, la- last thing I'll say and

I'll pass it back to you, what's ironic
is these guys would be Calvinists, right?

So here's... What's the basic argument in
Calvinism is that man is depraved, that

his nature is unable to receive Christ. So
every s- every person that's saved is a

supernatural work of God regenerating you
and giving you a new nature. In other

words, you don't talk someone into it. You
don't manipulate. You, you give the

Gospel,

and the Gospel is the power of God for
salvation. Ironically, we know that man is

depraved, but somehow Christian
nationalists think that culture is not.

In other words, hey, man, there's no hope.
Everyone's exceedingly wicked. They need

the Gospel to be saved, but this
institution somehow is just totally like,

we can just build it and it's gonna be
awesome, filled with unbelievers. Like,

it doesn't make sense. It's a flash in the
pan. It's going away.

Their moment is ending,

-so...
-Yeah, you th- that flash in the pan moment

is ending. You think that is because just
politically right now,

-it's easy-
-Yeah

-... to, to do this.
-Yeah. So we, we would love to romantically

think that the church

impacts culture,

and

properly done... Like, I'm gonna s- I'll
say, you know what, let me say this and

really sound inerrant.

Our church is gonna impact the culture
way... When, when the Christian

nationalist churches are failed and in the
dust, ours won't be.

I'm not giving a prophetic words. I mean,
like, but basically, why? Because we're

preaching the Bible. We're teaching the
tr- We're not avoiding hard issues. We go

into... We... There's nothing we haven't
talked about. We talk about all these

issues. And you don't have to agree with
our view on everything, but my point is,

why... What is the argument? We're staying
in our lane, which is what? The Word of

God does the work of God in the people of
God through the Holy Spirit of God as we

preach the Word of God. It's the, the
means that God uses. And th- this podcast,

by the way, is not preaching. This is...
We're just, again, epistemology. This is

helping what Christian worldview is. It's
a byproduct of that. But you wanna really

get down to it, come out to church. That's
the, the change agent. And

when you look at these movements, the
flash in the pan, they are just... It's

like, again, fashion. Theology often
follows fashion, and so many people are

super serious about their theology,

they say, but really they just watch some
podcasts and they think that they know

stuff. This happens all the time when you
get to people that are talking about, um,

all the stuff I just mentioned, reformed
theology, Calvinism, Arminian, great. You

can have lots of opinions. If you actually
read,

like, authors and know what you're saying,
you'd realize that the, like, again, the

Armenian is actually... They're
determinists also that... You know, when

you get down to it, what people are
actually arguing for is usually their,

their echo chamber, their algorithm group
that's telling them that they're so right.

Um,

but their arguments are very modest, or,
or immodest rather, and they're not based

on... They haven't engaged any real
thought on the other side. And Christian

nationalism is uniquely prone to this.
Their echo chambers are very deep,

and you go down the rabbit trail and
they're just talking to themselves. They

only engage the dumbest straw men.

They never engage real ideas.

Um, for example, when they talk about
dispensationalism, they don't actually

talk to real people that know
dispensationalism. They don't have any

charity to understand what someone would
believe. They, they make big sweeping

statements, which is super appealing to
your echo chamber, which is a bunch of

gotchas. And, you know, like,

the, the reason that works is that you get
a lot of clicks.

-Mm-hmm.
-So right now they're getting a lot of...

It's the same reason Candace Owens is
popular now. It's the same reason Tucker

Carlson is... Why is Tucker Carlson doing
what he's doing? Why is Megyn Kelly doing

what she's doing, where she's all of a
sudden like, "You know, I think Islam

might be great"? Because that's the clicks
and that's the popular thing. And so

these guys are chasing clicks. Obviously,
we are not 'cause here we are. But,

but, uh, I'm like, "We got 2,000
subscribers."

-We're chasing subscribers, not clicks.
-I don't care. I don't... I'm, I'm gonna

chase them. I don't... I'm, I'm not, I'm
not saying that. But I'm like, if your

goal is just to get clicks, then the more
crazy thing you can say, then the more

-clicks you get, right?
-Mm-hmm.

I mean, Sean Si just clipped a video from
last week where we were just shooting the

breeze at the end, and I basically said
everyone's an idiot. And they're like,

"That's the clip that people are gonna
click on."

And so there's an incentive structure for
us to get crazy, right?

-Yeah.
-These guys that I mentioned, I mentioned

Joel Webb and I mentioned some others.
They're... Doug Wilson was... They're

provocateurs. They say provocative things,
and then when you try and nail them down,

they're like, "Well, that's not what I
really meant. There's nuance here." And-

-Yes.
-And so they never actually... I'm like,

"Okay, but you speak all the time. You're
saying so many words all the time. Why

can't you be clear?"

Yeah. You're, you're... Usually you're
only clickbait. Another reason why I

wanted you to be on a podcast 4 years ago
was that you say a lot of modest things

against

things that have been said that are very
clickbaity. So you come off as, like, an

-extremist-
-Yes

... 'cause you're like, "Joel Webb and
what Joel Webb said was stupid." You're

like, "That's a nor- that's just a modest,
normal statement."

-Yeah.
-It was stupid. Um, I do wanna talk a bit

about, not some of what they're saying,
but just things that I heard in these

debates and I, I couldn't wrap my brain
around it.

-And, and-
-There was-

-... can I say one caveat?
-Yeah, go for it.

If there's... If, if you're... If...

These clips are gonna go out and people
are gonna... If someone's into Christian

national- I'm not interested. This is...
Paul tells Timothy not to get caught up in

endless dissensions and discussions about
genealogies. And now you have people,

literally you have people on podcasts
talking about race and intermarriage and

crazy things. G- like, God help us. Like,
th- like-

-Mm-hmm
-... Paul, Paul's basic argument to Timothy

is, "Don't get caught up in this. Avoid
this stuff."

Um, these guys not only are not avoiding
it, they're majoring in it. And, and

-they're-
-Yeah

... sticking their hand in it. Why? Well,
it's an age-old issue, but they're like,

"It's, it's a way to be divisive." And
that's the other thing, it's very

divisive. But my point is, when people get
into this, everything I'm saying right

now, people are like, "Oh, you're..."
We... I can back it up. We can show it

literally. But, like,

I don't care.

You know? I'm not gonna... I'm not... I
don't wanna go down the rabbit trail of

Christian nationalism thing. I think
that... Again, I think these guys are...

They are... What is, what is the fashion?
They are bell-bottoms. They're gonna go

-out.
-Yeah.

You know, everyone's like, "They're JNCO
jeans of theology right now." And so

they're gonna go out of style, and it's
coming really soon. Skinny jeans are

-coming back or whatever.
-Yeah.

We'll call ourselves straight-leg jeans
and-

Well, well, on that, and you and I were
talking about this too, is the protection

-is just knowing your Bible well.
-Yes.

And I saw a lot of, you know, biblical
jujitsu on getting to certain points that

they were making. One of them,

and I was just trying to find
understanding,

having read the Bible a bunch, is that
they make the claim that the apostles

understood the Great Commission as a
mandate to transform the Roman Empire into

-a Christian state. And I just-
-So, so stupid

... like, where? I can't...

-I said, "Where would you get this?"
-Well, that's, that's what I'm saying is

this is what, like, every cult group does,
is when you start saying stuff like that,

you get so over your skis. Again, Paul
wr- the whole book of Philemon-

-Yeah
-... it does not undo slavery. It, it... So

what do they do? They say, "Well,
actually, we should have slavery." I'm

-like, "Oh, gosh."
-Mm-hmm.

Now that's gonna get you a lot of clicks,
you know?

-Mm-hmm.
-Like, like, what... In other words, Paul

basically sends,

uh, Onesimus back to Philemon, a runaway
slave, and we're gonna get into that next

week because, or the week af- Deuteronomy
goes into that. But what... The whole

point that they're seeing is that at every
turn in the New Testament, it scandalizes

you with how much it allows wicked
society to go forward with almost boredom.

It, it... In other words,

let me say this. If you're watching this
right now, I'm gonna t- so tonight's

Tuesday night teaching, so you'll watch
this on a Monday. So when you watch this,

it will have already happened. So you go
to last Tuesday's teaching. This is

confusing me. Um, on our website, on the
app, and it's on the sub- the, the, the

topic is omnipotence.

Um, I, I worked really hard on it. This is
all gonna go and, and become the book on

-the, the Mere, Mere God book.
-Mm-hmm.

And so

this chapter on omnipotence I'm gonna
teach tonight, or you'll, you'll hear it.

And Christian nationalism, for example, I
don't even bring it up, but they basically

have a very low view of God's
omnipotence.

They basically see themselves as agents
accomplishing something, a means, in other

words, that God's using to accomplish his
end, and it makes God so weak and silly.

And they say, "No, what are you talking
about? God uses means and ends." I'm like,

"That's not how the d- what you have to
do now is re-see all of the pictures of

Christ coming back." Like, when Christ
comes down against Satan in Revelation,

there's no battle. Satan is not an advers-
he's not an equal adversary to God. It's

like he comes down, psst, and you're dead.
There's no conflict there. Christian

nationalism is built on this con- it's
almost dualistic in its conflict. There's

a conflict of good and evil, and God needs
us to fight against the power. I'm like,

"Oh my goodness. What Bible are you
reading?" And the way it views society,

again, the reason they s- that, that
everyone was, uh, in Ephesus was freaking

out and the silversmiths were going out of
business was not because they... that

Paul seized campaign and seized the, the
levers of power, which again, let me say

this,

Marxism. I keep bringing it up because
this Marxist thinking is what Christian

nationalism is essentially. It's
oppressors and oppressed, and so

we're the oppressed. We need to get power
for power's sake in any means possible.

It's just Christian Marxism, I think, is a
good way to say it. But that's actually a

good word. Christian nationalism is
Christian Marxism.

I don't know if I would use that, but

it's something. Okay.

But I think the basic, the basic issue
when you come back to it is, like,

the, the,

the way they're using the Bible on any,
like, any reading, you should... What,

what you have to do is when someone makes
statements like that

and you go check them out, like, they're,
they're such an immodest statement, right?

So see, people see what we're doing and
think that we're making immodest

statements. We're saying

modest things.

That what? The church isn't the state.
Like, that's not an immodest statement.

Now, someone might say, "Well, like, can
you..." If you're a reformed believer like

I am, let's say, in the sense that you
believe in covenant theology, great, you

can come to church. You'll like me and
I'll like you because you'll understand

I'm not... I like all the covenants. I
think covenant theology is right about a

lot of things. I think they're wrong in
the most basic thing that the state of

Israel stops ceasing to be an agent and an
item.

And so, like, that's so modest, right? Uh,
these guys take super extreme things, and

when someone says something extreme and
bold, the Bible is uniquely about, the

apostles understood that it was about
changing their own effort. That's a

humongously immodest statement. And the
guy making it confidently and saying it

out there should, you should d- he's
disqualified. You shouldn't listen to that

person anymore. That's a ridiculously
dumb statement. It's totally dumb.

Oh, I'm getting incensed.

I'm getting, I'm getting-

-Just to-
-... whatever, rage-baited.

Yeah. You are getting rage-baited. I do
wanna add some clarity on some of the, you

know, most of the scripture that they
will point out is from the Old Testament,

so I just wanna give clarity to a few of
these. Y- you'll know most of them, but

does Psalm 2 teach that governments are
supposed to submit to Christ?

Yes, absolutely it does. Yeah, governments
should submit to Christ.

-When?
-Mm-hmm.

When he's on, he, when he's ruling and
reigning on the throne. Like, he is ruling

and reigning on the throne. Like, cool,
where is it? Well, in heaven. And so now

you have to spiritualize Christ's 2nd
coming.

So is Christ coming back to rule and
reign, yes or no?

And if they say, "Well, yes," I'm like, so
then that's when the nations

are supposed to, like, go to the throne. I
mean, when you read Zechariah, like, if

you spiritualize that whole thing, and
they're all supposed to do that lest he

come get you with a rod of iron. That's,
that's why, like, reason, the, the most

recent thing that happened, I mentioned
Joel Webbon because he's just came in my

feed. He just basically put, pronounced a
Christian fatwa against Phil Johnson. Um,

you know, he basically is speaking like a
mullah. He's speaking like, uh, one of

the, you know, Islamic, um, caliphate
builders, but wants to build a Christian

caliphate. And he's saying, "Oh, Phil
Johnson's gonna be smoted because he went

against the gospel of Christian
nationalism."

Um,

this kind of language is clickbaity, it's
bad, but it's also really, really, really

bad exegesis.

Like, s- the idea that Psalm 2 is
spiritualized for right now

-is so over your skis.
-Mm-hmm.

And if you're going to a church that
teaches this and you think you're

intelligent, because you're like, "That's
not what they mean," I'm like,

that, I have no... I'm... If you can read
the Bible and come up with that, that

Psalm 2 is about Christian nationalism,

um, I don't trust your reading of the
Bible in almost any other place. Like,

that is absurd.

I don't know.

That's just abs- I don't know what to say.
Like, it's just absurd. What? Give me

-another one.
-Um...

-That's so offensive.
-It is.

-They say Psalm 2-
-I know, I know. It is. Um, they like the

Psalm 33:12, "Blessed is the nation whose
God is the Lord."

Yeah. W- look,

um...

-You're like, "That's a true statement."
-Yeah, it's all true. Blessed is the

nation. And you know what's funny is,
like, our nation, uh, is, I think, the

greatest nation in history, right? Uh,

well,

we're, we're a nation built on Biblical
presuppositions. To the degree to that

which we hold those, the degree we're
great. So how do we reform this nation? We

-need to make disciples-
-Mm-hmm

... right? That's how the silversmiths
went out of business, is that they made

disciples. They sold their books of magic,
they stopped buying silver, not because

they started a silversmith campaign. And
so that's the issue. Um, and a nation

whose God is the Lord is, amen, will one
day, read Zechariah 12 to 14.

One day, Christ will rule and reign and
all the nations will be nations whose God

is the Lord. But in the meantime,

even Israel writing this,

you know, in Psalm 33, like, the, God is
supposed to be the Lord, but they

continually go to Baal and they con-
continually listen and follow the-

-Mm-hmm
-... the pagans. And so...

Yeah, that's, that's a hard... I don't
know what they wanna get by... Like,

that's a great example of not all Israel
being Israel. You're like, they had

everything in the world that you could
possibly have, and yet they just cons-

-sinned over and over and over again.
-Yes.

So what would even be the benefit

of having... Like, it's not like more
people are gonna be converted, especially

-with a reformed theology.
-They just lose the gospel.

-Yeah.
-There's no gospel. Where, where's the

gospel? The gospel is that the pow- the
gospel is the power of God to do what? R-

okay, remember, every time someone comes,
becomes a Christian, it's a resurrection.

You went from death to life, and one day
you'll be resurrected in a glorified body.

But every conversion is a miracle, that
you go from a dead person, Ephesians 2,

"But God, in Christ," like, th- like,
"made us alive. By grace you're saved

through faith and not of yourself." That's
the gospel. The gospel does what? It

justifies us 1st, right? Which is
justification. I don't wanna go into it.

Justification, sanctification,
glorification. It changes, it gives us a

new,

um,

category. We're changed over time, and
then one day we'll have a glorified body.

All of that is now what? Serving some
other purpose where you build these

nations and structures of what? A bunch
of, a s- a state of non-believers? I mean,

read... Okay, I'll tell you this to these
guys. Read Exodus,

read the building of the tabernacle, and
then read Numbers. And it was those people

that built the tabernacle, those people
that went through the Red Sea that God

wasn't pleased with in the wilderness,

and all of them died, every single one.
It's a whole book of Numbers. We went

through every verse and preached through
it. If your argument is, "Oh, well, we'll

be... There's no nation more, uh,

you know, with God as Lord than is the,
the nation that came out of Egypt,"

and none of them made it. And it's their
kids that are gonna go in. And what

happens when their kids go in? Joshua. It
looks pretty good for a minute, and then

you get the Judges. And so at, at best,
what they're aiming at is the Book of

Judges?

Grow up, man. It's so dumb. It's
short-sighted.

Speaking of dumb, you'll love this one.
Does Revelation 11:15, "The kingdom of

God," or, "The kingdom of the world has
become the kingdom of the Lord and of, and

of His Christ," teach Christian political
conquest?

Oh. Yes,

-in, when, in, in the future.
-Yeah.

Like, it's just, it, it basically, what
it's doing is it's, it's spiritualizing

all this language. It's no better than
liberal theology that uses it to say that

-Jesus-
-Mm

-... was really gay-
-Yeah

... or he really did this. I mean, these
guys, you can all, like, you know, like J-

James Talrico in Texas, he's like, "Oh,
well, God's really bisexual." And I'm

like, "Oh my goodness." It's, it's
profane. It's foolish.

The fact that they have a following is a
blight upon our nation. It just shows

there's so much Biblical ignorance, so, so
much. And the worst part is, it's an

ignorance that's on fire.

You know what I mean? It's like folks that
are so bold

and just de- declaring to everybody how
ignorant they are. And because they've

read a few things, they talk about the
Bible. I mean, like, it's just so

frustrating. I don't know.

I think Christian nationalism,

I, I, I've been calling this out for years
and before anyone knew what it was.

-Mm-hmm.
-And

again,

we should be pro-America. We should want
good laws. We should vote and take part in

things. You know, like we should do all
that stuff as good citizens. That's basic

good citizenship in Romans. You know, we
should oppose the,

you know, um, the government, like w- what
is it called? Like globalism. We should

oppose that, right, based on, you know,
here's Noah. And so we've, we can make all

these cases, um, but the Christian
nationalist argument, as soon as they're

cornered, usually turns around and starts
insulting you. It's, it's childish,

um,

but it's also just really wicked at the
extreme ends of it.

Um, there's obviously people that would
probably claim the, the label Christian

nationalist that would be seeming,
seemingly moderate, but the people that

are its spokesmen, Wolfe and the rest,
they say some really wicked things. So...

And the last one I'll use is, you just
mentioned it, Romans 13 is that require

civil government to enforce God's moral
law.

What, what... So the argument is does, do
we need a civil government to enforce

-God's moral law?
-Yeah.

Well, in what sense are... And what's,
what are we, what is the purpose of the

law,

the moral law? To order a society? I mean,
like,

yeah, it, it could. If you look at our law
code, so much of it comes from

Deuteronomy.

Uh, it's the most quoted book in, in sort
of the Federalist Papers, right? Um,

so you could look at

the Western co- code of like, here's some
stuff, but the idea that the Christian law

is something that's gonna be enforced by
the civil government is absurd.

I mean, most of... If you even look at our
Constitution, Declaration of

Independence, the, the whole 9 yards, the
whole basis isn't even stating laws on the

basic thing. It's stating

limits to power

of the government. So what, why, based on
what? Well, the government isn't God. God

is God, and the government isn't God.

And so since we aren't in a theocracy, the
government doesn't get to be God, so we

get our rights from God. And the
government can't infringe on those rights

because the government isn't God. Ch- you
know, the, the Christian nationalist idea

is like, "Oh, so, so you just need a
secular state to enforce the moral law?"

No.

Our founders stated that you need to be a
moral people to be free,

right? And so what they're basically
saying is, no, no, no, you need to be

what? A Christian nationalist to be moral?

And they say, "Oh, so you're gonna get it
through secularism?" The whole problem is

they keep coming back to is that all the
change that they want is enforcement. It's

at the level of law, and it's a level of
civics. And the Bible's written at a

better level. It's written at the point of
the, of ha- like Paul, the Apostle Paul,

was, before that Saul, going into Damascus
to what? Murder and kill Christians. And

what happens? He encounters Christ, and
boom, Saul's blinded and he comes... And

then that same man went out and started
proclaiming Christ. That's the gospel

story. Their whole thing is, again,
baptize and power. Oh, so, and this is the

straw man. "Oh, so you want the civil
government to have to en- uh, enforce

Christian law?" I'm like, "What are you
even talking about?" That very question,

if someone even says that question,

you are... I gotta stop. I'm gonna stop.
There's a dumbness to it.

It's just,

that's like saying, "How many berries does
it take to build Microsoft Office?" Like,

what are you even talking about?

Enforce Christian law. I mean, give me a
break. You need... You don't... I don't

even enforce Christian law in the church.
What does that mean? I remember this, I

remember somebody like, "Is it
permissible?"

Uh, 'cause what? So if you don't obey me,
what do we do? Do we spank you? The

biggest thing the church can do is say,
"You can't participate in the community.

We don't recognize you." And at the end of
the day, God Himself exists and the Holy

Spirit is the one that works, and God does
stuff, and we pray for people, and we w-

and God works through prayer and the Bible
and teaching. What, how do we even

enforce anything?

So what, do they wanna put people to
death, executions? Like, give me a break.

These guys, at a certain point, the more
they speak, the less I feel like they even

know Christ, honestly. I can't even
imagine. What, what kind of gospel...

Where's the love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, goodness when you're saying

stuff like that? I don't know.

I don't know.

-Yep.
-You'll know them by their fruit.

Yeah, they're missing the mark. That's for
sure.

-Yeah.
-What, what should a church's... We may

have t- asked this question on a different
podcast, but

what should a church's involvement be with
politics? Or should it have nothing to...

Like, not the individuals, but the church
itself?

Yeah, a church can be involved in politics
all it wants. I mean, there's nothing

that... Like, churches should be super
involved in politics. I mean, what does

that mean? Like,

we en- endorse a candidate. Stop. Like,
that's not...

In other words, if you're focused on the
target, that's like saying, "How much salt

-should you put in your food?"
-Mm-hmm.

Right? I mean, the question isn't that.
It's like, how do you make good food? And

you just put enough salt to make it good.
How... Like, so if there's a, if there's

something that's coming up in the
political realm that's relevant to what

the church is facing. So for example, we
mentioned some of the big subjects right

now that we call the culture war,
transgenderism,

um, homosexual marriage, um, you know, the
whole thing about women and the WNBA.

These are relevant not as mere culture war
issues. They're relevant as basic issues

about what is a woman, what is a man.
These are the basic building blocks of

reason, right? So it's reasonable to
encounter these things when someone says,

"Oh, no, it, it's my body, my choice." I'm
like, "Yeah, but there's another body

that's also..." And so that stuff the
church should engage in. But do we need to

go out and do campaigning? I'm like, "Why
would you waste your time?" Why would I

waste my time leading a rally when I get
to preach the word? And so, like, now,

does that mean that people in the church
can do that? Absolutely. So I think one of

the biggest things back to what we were
saying is if the church is a

program-oriented church, you're always
gonna make sure, how do we have every

program for every person? How much
politics and how many mom groups and how

many... Stop. The church needs to make
disciples, let the people do ministry. So

some people are gonna be more politically
minded. Amen. Go all for it. And you are

the church. And can they tell people that?
Sure. And can they get people to go to a

rally? Absolutely. Why not?

And maybe someone else is, like, into a,
a, um, anti-abortion ministry. Great. Have

fun. And maybe someone else is doing soup
kitchens. Awesome. That's the church. Let

the church be the church. But when we say
the church in the way you're talking

about, think pastoral ministry leading
from the pulpit,

my job is to preach and teach the Bible.
And I can say any... I can talk about

politics all I want. There's no
restriction on me.

However, I have a task

and if I do that task, those things will
come up, certainly, but my task is this.

And if you get off that task, what does
Paul say to Timothy? "Preach the word in

season, out of s- season. Rebuke, you
know, exhort with complete patience and

kind- and ti- patience and kindness 'cause
the time is coming when they won't endure

sound teaching and they will heap up
teachers that'll tickle their ears." So

some pastors, they wanna tickle people's
ears with politics, and so that's all

they're gonna say. They're basically
pulpit provocateurs doing exactly what

these guys are doing online. Instead of
getting clicks, they're trying to get

attaboys.

And so,

you know,

preach the word in season, out of season.
And so, like, I don't know, if politics

are relevant, bring it up. If it's not,
don't. But, like, this is your task. And

so the thing that we're judged by is being
faithful to this task. And a lot of these

guys, man...

Yeah. The... just the tenor I got was
there, it seems very short-sighted.

They're very focused on the here and now.

Um, it's almost like you're, you, you
could be... your kids could be saved to a

Christian nation instead of your kids
could be saved from the fiery wrath of

hell and God's wrath and being punished in
hell. So it, it removes that and is now

like, our biggest problem is not that

we're sinners in the hands of an angry God
damned hell. Our problem is that our

nation isn't Christian. And then there's a
huge emphasis on the legacy of our

children. It's, it's like our children
will, will... Do you want them growing up

in a nation that, you know, wouldn't be a
Christian nation? Instead of, am I leaving

a godly legacy for my children to grow up
in any nation regard-

How about, do you want your kids to grow
up in a household where your dad changes

the gospel to be about nationalism rather
than Christianity? How about that? How

about your kids growing up in a family
where your dad actually reads the Bible

and knows it instead of saying dumb things
about the Christian nation?

Sorry, I'm getting so frustrated by these
guys. They're just not serious people.

I'm gonna end it just 'cause you're
getting so hot.

I'm, I'm, I'm just, I'm just ti- I'm just
tired of the dumb

manliness, the Timu Matt Walsh face and
the different guys coming in and just...

they're just...

it's... okay, here's the thing. Timestamp
it. It's the same people that were all

into masking.

And they were all into the thing, and
like, they're all, they're all about

social distancing. They're all about this
and that. And they're like, today I'm

like, "Well, there's a thing. Are you
gonna go wear a mask?" And some guys are

the true believers, but like, no, everyone
needs to be embarrassed. You need to go

back and timestamp that people told you to
not go to the beach with a serious face.

You should remember those people. These
guys, their views are going to be

rejected. Very... they're... like, like...
and, and what I mean by that is they're

already rejected in a

literal way, but I mean, like,

pop- their popularity is gonna go down and
they're just gonna go away

and they're gonna move on to their next
shtick 'cause they're just... that's what

th- that's what people do.

You need to remember this moment when
they're saying their big stuff because

when it's not popular again,

like,

you can't let them just move to the next
thing.

-Mm-hmm.
-Like, you gotta remember the guys that do

-this.
-Mm-hmm.

And, and when they try to move on to the
next thing, you gotta be like, "Hey,

remember that thing you were into that it
was so stupid and wrong you never repented

of?" Like,

-anyways.
-One of my favorite questions to ask you is

this. If you... you know, one of your
friends gets caught in the trappings of

Christian nationalism, you just start
seeing posting on X and Twitter and all

over the place,

um, what would your counsel be to them?

With one of your friends? I would... at a
certain point,

I would just

ign- I...

-well, that's a big question.
-Yeah.

I mean, if you're... I wouldn't engage
them, though. I wouldn't de-friend them. I

wouldn't do anything like that. I just
wouldn't engage them.

-Mm-hmm.
-They're stupid.

The... what, what, why do I say that?
Like, do you, do you engage the guy on the

street corner that's telling you that the
aliens are coming and they put chips in

-his head? Do you be like, "Hey, that's-"
-Yes.

I know. What do you say? That's the way...
what does... do you say, "Don't throw

your pearls before swine"? When the, when
the rich young ruler comes to Jesus and

says, basically, "What must I do to be
saved?" he's not saying, "Let's talk about

all the things. Well, you think this, I
think..." He's like, "Keep the law." And

why did he say that? He wanted the guy to
see his idolatry and he needs Jesus. And

the guy didn't see any, he let him go
away. I think with a lot of these guys,

they want to engage in,

in... th- they're not arguing in good
faith often. Um, and so if one of your

friends gets into it, what are they...
when we say into it, what are they into?

-They're into podcasts.
-Mm-hmm.

They're into, like, documentaries. They're
into, like, these, these, this rabbit

-hole-
-Mm-hmm

... this echo chamber.

Don't go in their echo chamber.

Just stay in the Word. And so if you're in
the Word and your buddy's into the thing,

my personal favorite is when... because I
get all emails and people come talk to me

after church and they'll be like, "What
about..."

and I'm just bored of it. I'm not mean.
I'm... it...

remember, what does the provocateur want
to be like? "Look how edgy I am."

-Mm-hmm.
-"I'm so edgy." And when they say it, like,

"Hmm.

So tell me about how, how's, how's o-
other things going?" Like, I'm just bored

of that. "Oh, so you think that Israel is
supposed to..." I had this one guy, "Oh,

so you think that Israel and the genocide
happened?" I'm like, "All right, really?

You're still doing that? Anyways, so how's
life going? Are you reading the Bible?"

-Mm-hmm.
-"What's new?" "Oh, that's..." I'm like,

there's a point where, like, they're
pushing onto it. There's... they're not

in... now, if they're genuine, they're
like, "Hey, I'm really struggling with

this. What do you think?" I'm like, "Hey,
I'd s- I'd suggest we just read this

-thing." Like-
-Yeah.

So it's, it's based on how unreasonable
someone is.

Um, but yeah, don't answer a fool and
their folly.

You know? Or, or answer a fool and their
folly. In other words, you can't win with

a fool. In a certain point, people get
into foolish controversies that Paul says

to Timothy. And what does he say? "Avoid
them."

So when your friend does that,

um, or if you have someone in this thing,

just

keep the net, be ready to receive when
they come back.

Stay in the Word. Don't chase them off the
path,

you know? Like, say your wanna stay in the
Word, you're, you can't,

you know... stay in the Word. That's it.
Otherwise, you have nothing to offer if

you just go out. Basically, your echo
chamber versus theirs isn't gonna be very

-edifying.
-Yeah.

Stay in the Word.

Thanks, Matt. Appreciate it. If you have
any questions, more questions on Christian

na- Christian nationalism,

go to louderwordspodcast.com, click on the
Ask a Question button. And, uh, you

probably hit everything. Clearly, it gets
Matt hot-

-I just, I just hate-
-... hot as a toddy.

-They're posers. I just hate posers.
-You do hate posers. I do have a question,

though. You mentioned that you love
covenants. Do you love coven uncles?

What is that?

Coven aunts and coven uncles.

Coven aunts and coven uncles. That's so
bad. That's so terrible.

I literally wrote that down while you were
ranting, just so you know.

Coven aunts and coven uncles. That's,
that's so bad I'm offended by that.

-That's, that does not slap.
-Uh, well, we have a new section on the

-podcast.
-Oh.

This is not Does It Slap. It's where I
read comments from

-TikTok on your videos.
-TikTok. I think... So can I say this? I

don't really look at a lot of things, but
sometimes I'll go on and if I look at

which platform has the most intelligent
comments, it is right now YouTube has the

-most intelligent comments.
-Yeah, definitely.

Instagram's comments are a little less
intelligent.

-Yeah.
-And TikTok's comments are just straight

-dumb.
-It's the worst.

It's everyone on TikTok is... And if
you're watching this on TikTok-

-You're dumb.
-... I'm not saying you're dumb. I'm not

saying you're dumb because you watch this
show, but there's a really good chance

-you're an idiot.
-Uh, this is...

-That's all I can say.
-This is-

-That's the data I've got.
-I just love... I just wanna s- this is

just... I literally just took a screen
grab. I could go to any one of your shorts

on TikTok and get the funniest... This
one is on-

-Oh, my God.
-This was on you telling the story about

how you went to a church here in town when
you 1st got saved and realized that there

was 2 Mormon, like, missionaries who had
infiltrated your Bible study.

The 1st comment is,

"What are things that never happened?

Mormon missionaries are not allowed to
evangelize in other churches. We just

wouldn't do that. Maybe it was be-

or maybe it did, but this is highly
suspicious."

Next one, "Ha ha ha. Okay. Nobody secretly
attends churches to do this. Let's just

-keep calling you a liar."
-Oh. Well, that's, that's all they can do.

And then, and then, sorry, go, go ahead.
"This story doesn't pass the smell test.

Not even close. I should've wore my boots
for this video. It's getting deep."

Last one,

"So they're basically clearly just looking
for clicks. This is ridiculous."

Yeah. Well, that's what everyone does,
right? Everyone that, when they don't like

something, like that guy's... And, and
it's like kind of like what we're doing in

a sense, where I'm saying about the
Christian nationalists, right? We're like,

"Oh, they're wrong." And now they're
doing it about me in the comments. The,

the difference with TikTok and stuff

is, like...

So there's this, this idea when someone's
making an argument and if it's, you don't

pick out...

Like, if I say to you, "Oh, this
so-called..." You know, I went to this...

Trump sometimes does this. He was like,
"Oh, this so-called, um,

soccer game." I'm like, "Wait, are you s-
debating it's a soccer game?" Like, why...

Like, the story that we told as if it's,
like, this fake thing. Of all the things

to not like that I said about Mormonism,
to p- point that out and be like, "This

doesn't pass the smell test." I'm like-

... wh- what is... It just, it's bad
argumentation. And so it's just looking

for someone that wants to disagree with
everything at all times,

you know? So, anyways, I love it. I kind
of... It just,

everyone's in their echo chamber and very
confident.

-Mm-hmm.
-And what they don't like... Let me say

this. People don't like that I seem
confident. I actually know things because

I study a lot for a long time. Like,

I'm not just shooting from the bree- like,

on Tik- I don't know. I don't even know
how someone comments on TikTok. Who

watches TikTok? I'm not against TikTok.
We're on TikTok. What is it?

-We're TikToking.
-Yeah, we're TikToking. TikTok... Anyways.

I'm trying to find another one. We had a
really funny one.

-There's some ridiculous ones on there.
-I sent it to the group. I'm trying to find

the one... The Catholic ones, I mean,
those were, those are getting... Oh, yeah.

-Here we go.
-It's just professional trolls.

-This is, this is the best.
-They're all, like, 13 year olds, I think.

No, this is the one. It was, it was on
your video of can a gay person attend a

church?

And the guy replies with,

"I bought communion wafers to a party and
gave them to all the gay friends. So yes,

they can take communion."

-It's just like, it's such a troll.
-It's all trolling. It's trolling.

-Oh, my goodness.
-And then, and, and of course you got the

Mormon guy saying the thing. And the
problem is that some people are genuinely

offended and they don't even know their
own positions and stuff. And so I would

say that TikTok is the folks that are the
most, um, disconnected from the context of

this, maybe is a nice way... So they're
not dumb.

-Yeah.
-So I don't wanna get caught saying they're

dumb. Don't slice me up on that one, Sean
씨. Uh,

I- I'm not... I don't think they're dumb.
They're just the most removed from

-context.
-Yeah.

They're the furthest removed. And you can
kind of see people's echo chambers where

they're super... See, one of the things is
if you don't know something and you're

super confident about your opinion on it,

-that's, that's foolish.
-Mm-hmm.

So when I'm on here talking about stuff,
it's stuff I've actually engaged and

-studied.
-Mm-hmm.

So my confidence is at least somewhat
earned.

Um, but when you're super passionate about
something-

-Mm-hmm
-... and you just don't know anything,

uh, you should check yourself. And that's-

-Yeah
-... that's... We're in a moment right now

where everyone's echo chamber gives them a
lot of confidence, but I'm like...

They're like, "I've really researched
this." What do you mean by researched? You

watched some videos? Like,

-anyways.
-It's very hard. I'm trying to get better

at that. Even in studying some of this
content this week, when Joel referenced,

um, uh, Philip Johnson's message, I was
like, "I should go watch that whole

-message."
-Yeah.

And then another debate clip that I found
that was 10 minutes, it's like, "I should

go watch this whole 4-hour debate and see
kind of where it came from." Uh, and it

was helpful just getting context behind
what they were talking about. It didn't

help or hurt their point anymore. Um, but
yeah, it's hard to do. It's easy to watch,

-watch a moment and go-
-And you're wasting your time listening to,

like... I mean, there's... Some things
that can be helpful, but I would say for a

lot of people, they do this as
entertainment.

-Mm-hmm.
-And that's really what these guys are for.

They're basically, again, provocateurs.
They're entertaining.

-Mm-hmm.
-And so you wanna, you want the guy to say

-crazy things-
-Yeah

... because it's, it's basically WWF for
Christian content. You're like, "Oh, he

hit him from the top ropes." And like, "Oh
my gosh, it's the Boston crab." And

you're like...

And, and so you're just wanting to... But
again,

the, the things that the Bible's occupied
by, it's all... This, this stuff's all a

-distraction.
-Mm-hmm.

And so that's the thing that offends me
the most about the Christian nationalism.

The reason I get so incensed is, like,
it's taking people that ostensibly are

serious about the Bible

and it's just getting them off track. If
you're reading Pilgrim's Progress, it's

-like leading them off the path-
-Yeah

... into something that's not the gospel.
And it... And like, if we say, "Hey,

there's lots of things to disagree with."
So I'll, I think this is a great last

thing to say for me is if you disagree
with covenant theology, dispensationalism,

cool. We can... We're, we can fellowship
together. You can be at church, fine. You

-disagree with this, fine.
-Mm-hmm.

Once you make it a gospel issue, you kind
of have to fight.

You, you, you gotta stand up. You gotta
draw a firm line. And the fact that a lot

of these guys are now making Christian
nationalism a gospel issue, saying this is

the gospel. I mean, literally-

15 years ago, when Tim Keller did this in
a subtle way, I called it out, and I got

saved listening to Tim Keller.

That's an issue that needs to be called
out. This isn't being divisive. They're

the ones being divisive. It needs to be
called out. And, and good pastors need to

call out dangerous stuff when it becomes
really dangerous. So...

That, that made me think of another
question. We're never... I, I've, I'm

-trying to land the plane. I'm not going-
-I'm sorry.

-Well, no, you were-
-I'm the... Yeah.

I mentioned before, I'm not gonna say his
name, but it was a pastor that, you know,

I follow and listen to his podcast. He's,
they're usually very edifying. Then I

found out

through my study in this that he's very
pro-Christian nationalism and devoted

about an hour and a half long show to it.
Is it a throw the baby out with the

-bathwater scenario?
-Oh.

Or can you, can you put this person,
"Okay, they're off here. I'll continue to

-listen to his work with-
-Well-

-... you know, justification?
-... to the degree in which... Now, I don't

think every Christian nationalist would
say that they think that Christian

-nationalism is the gospel, hopefully.
-Yeah. No, mo- most of them-

-But-
-... do not.

It... So in that sense, I guess you could
just be like, "Yeah, I think this guy's a

-little crazy over here."
-Mm-hmm.

Um, but again, once you start...

You know, again, is it okay to stand
outside abortion clinics and begin to...

Sure. Once you make that the gospel, eh,
the gospel is not that.

-Yeah. Yeah.
-So I think that's where we need to draw a

line. When someone is messing up the
gospel, Paul,

uh, confronted Peter to his face,

-uh, because he was eating with the Jews-
-Mm-hmm

... and not the gentiles in th- in
Galatians. And you'd say, "Well, why pick

that?" Well, because you being a Jew live
like a, can't live like a gentile. You're

-being hypocritical-
-Yeah

... and you're hurting the gospel. And so
I think the, those types of issues, if you

listen to someone, they start to hurt the
gospel, yeah,

that's... I mean, it's the reason that
Joel Osteen's a not great... N- you po-

everything he says is positive, "Amen."
But he doesn't, when he doesn't get the

gospel right, hey, that's a reason this
guy is like-

The worst. You're like, "He's not great as
a ."

He's not great. But my point is the
prosperity gospel- ... he says are true

things out of place, but it's that he's
replaced the gospel-

-Yeah
-... with prosperity. And so that's, that's

where these guys get trouble and you just
need to, like, depart. So

when you say throw the baby out with the
bathwater, uh, is there even a baby?

-Mm-hmm.
-You know,

-at a certain point. That's the question-
-Yeah

-... you're asking, so.
-Or a bath or water.

-Yeah, you know where that came from.
-Yeah.

So when you would take baths back in the
day-

-Mm-hmm
-... and you heat the water up and, um,

you would use the same water. And so the
man went 1st and then the wife and finally

-the kids-
-Mm-hmm

... would... But the water's getting
dirtier-

-Mm-hmm
-... as you get to it. So the whole point

was by the time the baby gets bathed,
it's, you could maybe not see a baby in

-there if it-
-Mm-hmm

... so don't throw the baby out with the
bath water.

-Oh, that's interesting.
-That, that's what I've heard. Uh-

Yeah. Uh, let us know in the comments if
that is a bunch of nonsense.

-No, I don't... That's-
-That's true?

Well, that's... We all say it's true, but
we don't know.

I bet Chauncey would. Chauncey, did you
share bath water as a kid? We did too.

Yeah.

-to me, it was .
-Yeah, exactly.

Okay, well, there you have it. So don't
throw the Chauncey out with the bath

-water.
-Yeah.

-That's the thing, so.
-Yeah, super Midwest and Canadian thing to

-do.
-Yeah, and I never heard of that.

-I know, yeah.
-So-

-Exactly.
-Anyway.

Um,

-all right. I do have one does it slap.
-Okay.

Uh, corn cob pipes.

-Yeah, they slap. They're pretty cool.
-Yeah, they're made of corn.

Yeah. They're, they are. They are cool.
Um, if you are into pipe smoking, I used

to be a pipe smoker, I will say corn cob
pipes are a rip-off. Everyone thinks

they're cheap and they're great.
They're... But you know what you're better

off doing?

Best way to get into pipe smoking, here's
a good tip, because I was into it.

-Okay.
-If you go to any pipe shop, any, like,

cigar shop,

ask them if they have any Savinelli 2nds.

Savinelli is a phenomenal brand. Their
pipes can be very expensive when they're

n- done. But when they make their pipes at
the finishing product, some of the pipes

might have a defect in the, a blemish, and
they wouldn't take it to its finished

product. So a, a finished Savinelli could
be couple 100 bucks.

But an unfinished one is just, like, not
stained at all,

and it'll be like 20 to 50 bucks. And
that's a $400, $200 pipe for 20, 50 bucks.

And the cool part is, as you smoke it,
the oils from your hand actually stain it.

It's gorgeous. They're my favorite pipes.
So you could get, like, the best pipes

for 20, 30 bucks, or you can buy a bunch
of cheap corn cob pipes.

Well, we were talking today about this,
how I-

So yeah, the corn cob pipes kind of slap,
but don't slap.

Yeah. Can't stop, don't stop.

The, about the, the...

There was a study that came out. I, I
can't remember the name of it. I should

find it. But it was how if you are someone
who will wait and buy something more

expensive that you really want versus a
cheaper disposable item, you're less prone

to heart disease.

-Yeah.
-And I went to Matt 'cause Matt is someone

who likes... He, you will, you will per-
once you find... You will save to buy the

more expensive item and hopefully hold
onto it for years.

-Yes.
-You hate the disposable culture that we

live in. You have nice watches and nice
things, but you do hold them for a long

-period of time.
-I just have one watch.

And I think it's because... We were
talking about a bit of, of like the,

they're probably better with delayed
gratification.

And so just with your background in
fitness and, like, the Bible is, like, you

can't read it in a day. You gotta take it
slow today.

Like, it's almost 3:00 PM. I've eaten no
food today. Delayed gratification.

Yeah, with, with... Exactly. Food, you're
probably less prone to, like, eat chips at

night and snack and things like that. It
was a fascinating study, but I thought of

you,

uh, because you are a person who does
this.

People will jokingly think I'm impatient.
The r- it's not true. What happens is once

I've made a decision, I, I do it right
away.

-Yeah.
-But I'm very patient. But, but that's...

-But you're perceptive in noticing.
-Yeah. Though you aren't with cars. You

-dispose of them quickly.
-Nope. I actually made... When I make a

decision, it just happens very rapidly.
Like, "It's time."

Uh, you've, you've had... Yeah, I won't
get into the cars. We've already gone down

that trail. Thanks for tuning in to the
show this week. Uh, go-

-Come to church.
-Come to church.

And watch the omnipotence thing. I don't
know if you put a link.

-Is that tonight?
-Yeah, that's tonight.

Yeah, tonight. Uh, our Tuesday nights here
are back in action. We have Adventure

Club and also Matt teaches what we call
theolog- theologetics. It's a,

a melding of theology and apologetics, and
it is back on. So they're gonna be live

stream Tuesday nights at 6:30 PM. You can
check those out as well. They're saved

-into per- perpetuity.
-And go to our app, the Barabbas stuff,

-Barabbas app.
-That's where I was going. And that you

just... I love that you started
interjecting with my intro and you're

-ending interjecting with my outro.
-I don... I can't-

I... Chauncey, can I get a mute button for
him?

-You can't mute button.
-I need a mute bu- Yeah, I love how I

-can't.
-I'll be like, "Just stop."

I have s- I have so few words on the A Lot
of Words podcast, and then the ones that

I do have-

-... you try to steal those as well.
-I want all the words.

-I want all...
-Those, they're my words.

All right. We'll see y'all next week.

-Hey, Matt, you know what really slaps?
-What?

Our subscribers, the people who watch the
show, you, each week. So thank you. We

appreciate you tuning in each week to
listen to the A Lot of Words podcast.

Make sure you like and subscribe and watch
the videos to the very end. It's great

for us. Make sure you comment, and it
really supports the channel. And we really

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and we're excited to keep doing this.

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