A Lot of Words

-Why does God allow Christians to fail?
-Yes, failure is part of God's plan for

your life. Because what would the opposite
be?

When is it appropriate to use force to
defend ourselves, our families, or

-innocent people?
-I just think a man who's so weak that he

can't protect his family and doesn't
protect his family has abdicated his

-responsibility as a man, biblically.
-Welcome back to the A Lot of Words

podcast. I'm Brett Shanic. Joining with
me, as always, this man in the hood, Matt

Smith, senior pastor at Barabbas Road
Church.

-[laughs]
-And colloquially, internally, this is

-known as the A Lot of Turds Fartcast.
-[laughs]

And... [laughs]

-Such child-
-[laughs]

-... children.
-Uh, this podcast exists to answer the

questions that you actually ask, and we
were just talking during the break, and by

break, I mean this is definitely a full
week later than the last recording.

So wait,

-[laughs] so later.
-This has been at least 20 minutes since

-the last podcast. But-
-It's a half a cigar later

... if you have questions, go to
alotoftwordspodcast.com, click on the Ask

a Question button, send in your questions.
But there's a spot there to fill in your

name. You don't have to fill in your first
and last name. You can make up a name.

Uh, if you have, like, a personal

counseling question that you wanna ask, we
will answer it.

-Yeah.
-Uh, I think that'd be a blessing. You

don't, it doesn't have to be more of a, a-

Yeah, if you, if you make it hypothetical
and abstract, that's fine.

-Mm-hmm.
-I just think that,

you know, if you're like, "Hey,"

what's the Dear Abby thing? Like, we, we,
we counsel people all the time.

-Yeah.
-And, um,

a lot of theology ought to be applied. In
other words, when it sounds abstract, it

can be hard to apply, and then maybe what
happens is you might send a question and

you're making it abstract. When you ask a
personal question,

you know, you can have us change the na-
say, just change the name or something.

-Say, like, oh, Bob from-
-Yeah

-... you know.
-Use a, use like a random no-name like Matt

-Smith.
-But sometimes the personal setup kind of

is good practice to help... Basically,

one of the things I want in this, if I
have any wants, I'm just sort of here to

-do whatever you say-
-[laughs]

... uh, is, you know, when you hear a
personal thing, one of the challenges, a

skill that I want Christians to maybe get
better at, is to hear a, a, a

conversation, to hear all the messiness,

and then from that to, like, find the
biblical categories and then answer it.

And then, in other words, you wanna take
the, the, the craziness,

extract from them the thing that the Bible
answers, and then reintegrate those back

into that circumstance.

Uh, that's a skill I think that we can all
practice, and I don't know, maybe that'll

be good. So if you have some personal
questions without, I don't know, we'll see

how personal they get, but, like, you
know.

-Yeah, we get a, we get a few. I'll try-
-If you have any style questions, we'll

-answer your s-
-[laughs]

-... the wardrobes and, uh-
-Do you want obnoxiously large water

bottles?

-But-
-I don't even have a water bottle with me

-right now.
-But, [laughs] but I do think, uh, this,

some of them come in and say, "I'm talking
with my friend and they believe XYZ,"

send those in as well. We'll be able to
give you some-

Give us your friend's name and address,
and we'll put the... [laughs]

-Yeah, exactly. We'll put a... [laughs]
-We'll dox everybody.

We'll dox everybody.

Matt, um,

this wa- yeah, update us on the water
bottle scenario. You've really been trying

to get... Why have you been trying to
give me your new water bottle?

I don't wanna give it to you, I wanna sell
it to you.

-[laughs]
-Because they were so-

'Cause you, 'cause you owe me money.
[laughs]

I owe you money. I, well, this is just
until the first.

-[laughs]
-You signed up for a golf tournament that

-you want me to play with you on.
-Yeah.

And I was like, "That sounds great if I
don't pay for it." And then,

um,

you, you sent me the Venmo request for
what I owed you, and I was like, "I, yes,

obviously, I will pay you this on the
first, but if you like this water bottle,

that would be a great trade. In fact, it's
a great deal."

-You almo- [laughs] you almost had me.
-No, it's a great deal because-

-Yeah
-... if you were to buy this water bottle,

which you cannot buy,

it would be quite a bit more expensive
than that.

-That's true.
-So this, what happened is the...

You know, I'm not an influencer, but I,
I'm, like, accidentally one now.

-Mm-hmm.
-And so the, the

m- metal bottle place, I got that one, and
they were so long in sending it to me, I

-actually sent a complaint letter-
-Mm

... which I never do,

and they ended up sending me two.

Uh, but it's very, very expensive. And so,
um,

I'm going to sell it.

Maybe I should sell it to one of the
people on... Should I sell something to

you guys? You guys want... Oh man, I
don't, I feel like that's unethical.

Yeah, I don't know if we, we can't do that
yet.

-You could always give it, give it away.
-Oh.

-Yeah. If... Well, I know. Okay, so, well-
-Give away your car like Oprah.

Yeah, right. You get a car. You get a car.
Um,

no, but anyways, I, I liked the, so the
water bottle thing, I wanted that titanium

-one I told you on Kickstarter.
-Yeah.

G- gave it to me. It's the best ever.
Maybe I'll just keep it-

-Mm-hmm
-... forever,

uh, and have a second one for when it...
But it's never gonna break, so... If, if

you want an unobtainable titanium water
bottle from me-

-Mm-hmm
-... uh,

you can donate that money to Brett's
paying, paying me off-

-[laughs]
-... pa- paying for the golf tournament.

So Brett... [laughs]

Or you could buy

-16 mugs.
-If you buy 16 mugs, maybe we do that.

-We'll throw in a water bottle.
-Oh, no we can't. [laughs] We can't do

-that.
-Now I'm giving away your stuff.

Yeah, you can't give away my stuff. You,
you, you've guilted me enough, Brett.

-Yeah.
-This is where... I've also given you a

really rad water bottle. You don't even
use it. You keep using that crappy one,

-so.
-Uh, yeah, that one's in, it's in my

camping bag.

-So many uses.
-Yeah. Like I said, I like certain things

-for certain places.
-Ugh.

That's why I have three Bibles.

Uh, okay, let's get into questions right
away. It's hard 'cause all of our banter I

-used in the last one.
-I'm, I don't, I don't even need banter.

You come in here and just be a jerk to me
and be like, "Answer the question, man,"

and, like, I'm fine with that. I don't
care.

-Yeah.
-We ba- we're, you're my friend, so we just

talk. I just, I basically, you somehow
make me forget that I'm on camera.

-Mm-hmm.
-You know, do you realize when I'm

preaching, what happened during COVID was,
uh, I think I mentioned it, but, like, my

-biggest fear... Did I say this before?
-No, you can say it again.

-So my biggest fear-
-I mean, I've heard it a ton, but-

When the church first started, um, we had
our first service. It, it, well, it hadn't

even started. You weren't even at the
church yet.

-Mm-hmm.
-So this was before. It was an evening

service, and the first time I ever
preached, like, people came out. I think

we had, like, 25, 30 people,

and I thought, "This is great."

You know, I'd... You have to research,
like, when you start something, the second

one you do, like if you start a church,
you start a restaurant, you do something,

the opening day will be whatever it is.
The next week on that same day will

literally be half, and then usually you
build from there. But when you're starting

and you're preparing a sermon, you have a
band, the whole thing, 30 people shows

up, it feels like, wow, this is a thing.
The next week, like, 15 people show up.

But some of those people are my children
and my wife,

and a couple people. And so you're really
dealing with, like,

five, six, seven people,

and if they're running late to the church
service and there's, like, no one there,

you're like, "Do we start?" And it was
this nightmare when I said, "Well, hold

on. Let me go use the bathroom first." I
never told anyone the story of this part.

You didn't hear it. We were at this
church, and I was doing this evening

service. I had prepared. It was the second
week. I'm all excited that I'm, like,

getting into the preaching thing,

and the service is about to start, and
literally nobody knew, that wasn't part

of, like, setting up the thing, had
actually even shown up yet.

And I said, "Well, let me just go use the
bathroom first." And I went in the

bathroom and I cried.

[laughs] And I wiped my face off, looked
in the mirror. I'm like, "You're gonna

preach to your family [laughs] and they're
gonna hear it." And I went out there,

and, like, two new people showed up, and
we ended up having, like, uh, yeah, 13, 14

-people.
-Mm.

It was... And

ever since then,

this was 20 years ago. This was before
Browser. And so

every time we'd start, I used to sit in
the front row because I didn't have a-

a- a- you know, an office. And I would
just, like, look,

and I just wouldn't look behind me,
because I didn't want to see it empty and

no one show up. I had... My biggest fear
was that just no one would ever come.

And when you're, uh, at the church now,
you're like, "Oh, there's a church here.

It's always like that." But, like, when
you're, like, a founder person of it, you

always remember when no one was. And so my
big fear was no one would show up. And

then one day, COVID happens and they shut
down. And so here we are in this school.

We were at Madison High School, and it's a
huge auditorium, like

650 chairs.

You know, uh, almost the size of our room
now. But it was, like, going way back,

high ceilings, dark. It was humongous, big
stage.

And everyone's like, "No one's allowed to
show up," but we had to go film it, and no

one was prepared yet. We hadn't gotten
kicked out of the school yet. So the

filming guys were all the way back at the
auditorium,

and no one was allowed to come because it
was, like, the first day of, like, COVID.

So now I'm, I'm supposed to go preach this
sermon to a completely empty auditorium,

and it was like my nightmare. They're
like, "Okay, go."

And I was at... for like two minutes. I
was kind of nervous,

and then I just got into it, and I was
totally fine. In fact,

the most embarrassing part of that first
video was you see me, like, turning to

-look-
-[laughs]

-... but there's no one there.
-[laughs]

And people said, "Well, who were you
looking at?" And then I think the joke

was, "Oh, there's cardboard." There's no
one there. I, I'm... When I'm on Sunday

preaching, like, you could have a clown
parade going by. I don't notice anything.

Um, and I just got so, like, kind of
dialed in after that first service. Like,

it doesn't matter who's there. It doesn't
matter if no one's there. I'm gonna go.

Uh, I'm gonna keep doing it. And you do
that with this podcast. We start, there

are the cameras, and within two seconds

I'm completely in my own world. It doesn't
matter if there's cameras, if there's,

like, a shark, you know, feeding a
squirrel. I'm not even gonna pay

attention. I'm gonna keep going.

And so I don't know if that makes me,
like, an idiot or just, like, a wind-up

toy, but that's what it feels like a, a
little bit. And so, uh-

-Mm
-... here we are. So I kind of lose myself

-in the music, in the-
-Yeah, in the moment. All right

... you better let it go. You only got one
shot. Do not miss this chance to lose it.

-Okay.
-Yeah.

-One Eight Mile.
-That was Eight Mile. I do remember, I

remember that service. And the sound booth
was way in the back and we were enclosed

-in it.
-Mm-hmm.

[laughs] Me and Jake, we did have the
conversation, "Should we make cardboard

-people?" [laughs] It's like-
-I was totally... And I thi- I think you

guys were shocked at how fine I was as it
went.

-Yeah.
-You know what was harder is w- during the

next couple weeks of COVID, before we
actually reopened. We o- reopened really,

-really early.
-Mm-hmm.

But there was a few weeks where we would
show up and I would just talk to the

camera. At this point, we were at the
ministry center, and the only time I got

so mad at you was the internet, like, went
down.

-Mm.
-And everyone was so casual about it.

-[laughs]
-And I was like, "No. I worked all week,

prayed my pants off, and I'm just staring
at a camera."

-Mm-hmm.
-"It, it can't go down." Like, you're

baring your soul to a camera. You're like,
"Okay, now let's go get a burrito."

There's not... You're not even talking to
someone after. Nobody's like, "Hey, I

liked your sermon," or, "I hate you,"
or... There's nothing. There's no

reaction. You literally stand up, talk to
a camera, and then it says you're, like,

done. You're like, "Okay, what do you want
to go eat lunch?" It was the worst

experience. And then to think that you do
that and the internet didn't work. And

then we had that one time that someone cut
the cord of our camera-

-Mm
-... and, uh, so we, we had to splice it

together. Took a walk around the building
and-

-Mm
-... man, we had some adventures. But

-anyways, here we are-
-Yeah

... just talking, and there's cameras in
our face, and I don't even notice it.

-Yeah. I love-
-That's the banter

... I love the phrase, "Prayed your pants
off."

Yeah, but you, uh, you di- you do a good
job of getting me wound up, I think, and,

uh,

I'm not even s- I forget there's cameras
staring in our face-

-Yes
-... basically.

You're gonna poke the bear. We do have
upcoming, at some point, TBD,

we want to do a live, uh, recording
session. I think I want to do a couple of

-these where people can actually come-
-Let's do it at the cigar lounge

... and sit... I do, yeah. I think
Chauncey's gonna hook it, one up at the

cigar lounge, uh, so that people can have
a cigar if they'd like, and then maybe

upstairs in the building would be great as
well. You could ask questions live. We

also want to do a YouTube Live where you
can be texting in on the screen your

-questions.
-But there's that thing again. We do

something live, we go do this, and, like,
no one's there. I'm fine because we're

-already doing the cameras.
-Or we-

-We already set it up
-... [laughs] or we're just terrible in

person.

Well, no, we are in person. There's no,
there's no edits.

-No, no, no. No. I would love-
-Well, Chauncey makes edits, but, like,

there's no edits. Like, we're not doing
take twos. In fact, last-

-No
-... the last episode beginning, I hope, is

in-

-Where we just cackled
-... where you, you just laughed for-

-I lo- I lost it a bit, yeah
-... yeah, you got-

-I lost
-... basically the giggles

-... I got, I got the [laughs] giggles.
-You got the giggles.

I got the giggles [laughs] 'cause your
face hit the microphone right as I was

-about to say something.
-You'll hear... They'll hear it. All right.

Yeah.

So we're banter, banter-less, l- um,
bantering-less is good. I think... I don't

care about banter.

-And I love banter.
-Yeah, I don't... I'm like Bruce Banter

-over here.
-You did, you did put a sweatshirt on,

-though.
-Yeah.

-W- w- was-
-Because it's, like, another week

... okay. It was, it was to trick the
people into thinking this is a different

-week?
-Yeah.

-Or was it just 'cause you were cold?
-I'm not cold.

-Oh.
-It's just to trick people it's a different

week.

[laughs] Mission accomplished. I put a
jacket on.

-Yeah.
-[laughs] It's the same shirt.

[laughs] I don't know why we would care
that they think it's another week.

-[laughs] I know.
-As if... Do, do you [laughs] do you

think... In our minds, we've invented a
thing where someone's like, "Wait a

-second. They're cheating."
-[laughs]

-"They didn't wait a week to do this."
-Exactly.

Why couldn't we just do it all at once? I
don't know.

-Yeah.
-Just, it just seems fun.

Just trying to be honest with people, yet
trick them at the same time.

But, I mean, yeah. That's great. This is
my jujitsu sweatshirt.

-Oh, yeah. Legion.
-Mm-hmm.

We are legion

-That's a biblical sweatshirt
-Well, it would be bad, though.

-Yeah.
-If it was biblical, it'd be bad. I don't

-think it's biblical.
-Mm, I don't know. Jujitsu.

-Jujitsu's great.
-Yeah.

I, look, I'm repping my brand. They didn't
pay me for anything.

-They should.
-They should.

-They're-
-Everyone should pay me

-... they're next door.
-[laughs]

You should let them know, "Hey, I want
your-"

You know, I, you know, I will say this. I,
uh, have trained jujitsu for, like, 15

years, and been to some, some amazing
schools. Everywhere in San Diego is

awesome, but the school I'm at right now,
I really love it. It's great. It's called

Legion. Keenan Cornelius's school. It's
over here on Miramar Road, one parking lot

over from the church. Um, I think it's an
amazing jujitsu school. It's really,

really good, so if you wanna train jujitsu
with me,

come out to Legion. They don't even know
I'm saying this, but come out and tell

them that you heard from Matt Smith, and,
uh,

you know, I'll, I'll go roll with you, and
you can try to fight me if you don't like

-me, and we'll have some fun.
-Yeah. He'll hug you violently.

-Yeah. I'll just, uh-
-Violent hugging is jujitsu

-... I'll gently crucify you.
-I like that.

Uh, if you want to support the channel,
you can buy a mug, you can buy a book. You

-can just Venmo me money. [laughs]
-No, no, buy the book.

-Just kidding.
-I want you to buy the book because, uh, I

-wrote it.
-Yeah.

And I'm working... Okay, I say, I'll say
this, it's summertime, summertime, and I

was supposed to, I was like, "I'm gonna
write, write, write, write, write," and I

still plan to, but I was deciding I needed
to take a, a week or two off.

-Mm-hmm.
-And I felt so guilty, but this is, like,

the week where I'm just not doing any
writing,

-and-
-And you're not preaching Sunday, either

-... and I'm not preach-
-Well, you would've been

-... can't, I would've.
-You've, it's already through, yeah.

-Paul would've preached for me for this.
-Paul has already preached.

So I am preaching this next Sunday, but,
but this week, getting ready for that, I'm

-not doing anything.
-Mm.

And it's really neat.

You know, I love what I do. I would never
exchange it for the world.

I preach, out of the 52 weeks, I mean, I
try to preach as many as I can. Like, I

don't, I think maybe five weeks a year.

-S- yeah, six.
-Maybe six. Maybe.

-Maybe six, yeah.
-Um, which is, like, kind of a big,

long time. I love it, um, and it always
feels weird to not do it, but it's kind of

-fun, too, to play hooky-
-Mm-hmm

-... and just, I'm reading books, and-
-[laughs]

... I don't know. I feel guilty a little
bit, too, but then it's good for me, so

-it's good.
-It is good, yeah. Breaks are good.

Yeah. But not long. I'm gonna get back to
it.

-Yeah. Yeah, keep treading, Ox. [laughs]
-Yeah, I mean, this is, yeah, this-

Somebody hook this guy back up to the
pole-

-Oh, man
-... and make him walk in circles. [laughs]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. I mean,

here we are. This is, this is... I don't
have a job, though. I just, no- no, we

don't have a job. This is what we do. It's
like life, it's fun, it's awesome.

-Yeah.
-So, all right, let's do it. What are we

talking about?

Well, it's, again, it's, uh, you
authorized-

-You're the boss
-... it's in, it's on the video.

-I know, but I'm not on the-
-But you-

-I'm not-
-You don't know what we're talking about

-... yes. I'm asking you to tell me.
-Yeah. We're gonna get to questions right

-away.
-Okay.

This one, uh, again, if you have
questions, go to a lot of words podcast

dot com. Click on the-

Questions button.

-[laughs]
-[laughs] You stup- a- ask a question

-button
-... ask a question button.

-Oh, that was great.
-Sub- like and subscribe, make sure you

-smash that subscribe button.
-[laughs]

-That's all I know how to say.
-Oh, that's pretty good.

-I'm not gonna lie.
-That's pretty good.

-Don't ask me directions.
-This one comes from Daphne. Daphne, thanks

for your question.

Uh, she asks, "Different levels of
punishment in hell. In Matthew 1:21-24

when Jesus said, 'It would be better f-
better be more tolerable for Tyre- Ty-

Tyres, Sodom, and for Sodom in the day of
judgment than you,' is he saying that

there are different severities of hell? In
other words, is Hitler and Mark suffering

more than the nice grandma down the
street?"

Yeah, great question. Um, yes, there's,
the, obviously what...

Yeah, th- he, there's, you gotta remember,
the, the issue of, the reason people

would think there wouldn't be, right, is
we sometimes make a small category error

when it comes to understanding sin. So in
other words,

w- when people say one sin is worse than
another, we're not implying that you can

be righteous. Uh, in other words, it's
like saying in math, getting a, a question

wrong means you're wrong, like, you're
out. But getting it really wrong means

you're really wrong. Well, it doesn't
matter. Like, in terms of, like, passing

the test, any wrong answer is in-
inefficient. The, any sin is enough to

demonstrate that you're an imperfect... A
great way to look at it is this. Heaven is

for perfect people. This is the nicest
way to say it. Heaven's for perfect

people, and if you went there like you
are, you'd ruin it,

right? Because you're not perfect.

Um,

any sin you commit demonstrates that
you're not fit for heaven,

right? You need a savior. Um,

none of that says anything to do with the,
the fact that,

the, so the category of heaven and hell,
the category of salvation and damnation,

has to do with your savior, right? Jesus
or not Jesus.

Um, but the actual, like, judgment, so in
the Book of Revelation, it describes two

books are opened, right? And I think the
mistake we make is to think that w- this

is the sort of the, the myth that people
try to say, is that you're gonna get to

heaven, and God's gonna judge you, and
then put you in one book, the book of life

or the book of the damned. You're gonna
be in one of those. You're written down.

Like, he's gonna look at your life, and, I
don't know, whatever, court, court and

whatever. That's not the case. Your name
is already in one book. And so the idea is

that you get there, and which book are
you in? Oh, you're in the book of

condemnation. And so they open up that
book, and your works, you're judged by

your works

for the kinds of punishment you get. And
for the believer, the book of life is

opened up, and you're judged by your works
for the kind of reward you get. So the,

the, the, when J- it says Jesus coming and
he's bringing his recompense is one

thing, or he's coming and, uh, the Bema
Seat, the judgment seat of Christ, is,

like,

at the Olympics. So

you have two different places of judgment.
You could go to a, a criminal trial where

you're gonna be judged for how long,

you... This isn't about whether you're
guilty or innocent. This is the judgment

for how long your, um,

punishment's gonna be. What do they call
it? The, uh,

when you go to the second part of the
trial. It's for the, there's a name for

-it.
-Sentencing?

Sentencing. Thank you. So you show up for
sentencing. That's what you have. So you

have either sentencing or you have the
Olympic, uh, podium.

So both are, both are a judgment. So at
the Olympics, that's actually, like, the

analogy Paul uses with, like, in his case,
the Isthmus Games, Corinthian-

... games. Um, in Athens and s- the rest,
you'd have, you'd at the Olympics, we put

them on a pedestal, if you will, first,
second, third. We judge them and we reward

them. The first place gets gold, and so
on and so forth. The Christian life is a,

a reward. You're going to be rewarded and,
and then those, given different types of

crowns and whatnot. And the crowns are not
like mid- you know, Middle Ages crowns of

like

r- more like wreaths,

like you put on a,

a, a victor. And the idea is that we would
lay them at his feet, and okay. But all

that aside, the Christian is gonna be
judged for reward, and by their works as a

Christian. So everything you do as a
Christian is judged, not for punishment or

reward, it's only judged for reward. And
a b- an unbeliever that doesn't believe in

Christ, that doesn't put their faith in
Christ, is judged by their works for

punishment. But which book you're in,
which category you're in is determined by

your faith in Christ. I don't know if that
helps, but-

-Mm.
-So yes, obviously

it matters the kinds of things you do with
your life. And that matters also as a

Christian. Like Paul, there's, there's
constant promises of unblushing reward

for,

um, serving well and doing... You know,
Paul says, "I know that,

you know, there's laid out for me a crown
of righteousness." He, he's, "I, I'm

gonna,

um,

finish the race." You know, that kind of
analogy. Um, I think for, we've created

this melding of categories. We say, well,
since it's just heaven or hell, that,

that, that's all that matters is just the
category you're in. I'm like, that's not,

what are you talking about? Like, I want
to do well. I want to serve the Lord. I

wanna do good things. And there's a couple
things that are really neat about this.

You know, in Christianity,

we sometimes get stuck saying,

"Oh man, I know I'm not perfect, and God
knows all my sins, but now he's saved me."

I'm like, right, but as a Christian, you
wear the righteousness of Christ, which

means you have a perfect track record,

um, declared for you, which means every
good thing you do is a good thing tacked

onto a perfect record. No matter how s-
like bad that good thing is, it's a good

thing tacked onto a perfect record, and
you're judged for reward. I think that's

amazing.

And, uh, no matter if you're on the other
side, if you're not a believer, everything

you do, no matter how good,

would just be something tacked on to a
criminal record. Like, you can't say,

"Hey, you just murdered five people, but
hey, you gave some charity." That doesn't

really,

you know,

offset some of the other things. 'Cause
you're, the, the, the realm of judgment

you're in is about that. So anyways,
that's the answer. Um, I think people get

stuck because they mistakenly try to, you
know, impose like Milton's Paradise Lost

in the whole thing, and that's not, that's
not true. Um, but there are levels to

this whole thing. But in terms of what
that looks like beyond just the fact that

there's a judgment and that you're judged
for your works,

uh, determining that is about all we know.
That's, that's about it.

Yeah, is that, I was asked by someone at
church on Sunday about Dante. W- is that,

-is that extra biblical?
-Of course, yes. It's a, it... Remember,

uh, you know, the whole, even the picture
of Satan, um, that we have

came from Middle Ages,

medieval sort of, you know, how did you,
you want to make this Dante's kind of

-version.
-Yeah.

And in Dante's version, like h- Satan is
sort of ruling in hell.

-Mm-hmm.
-In the Bible,

Satan is not ruling in hell, God is ruling
in hell, and he's, is, it is God's wrath

that's punished. And so we would say,
well, hell is being away from God's

presence. That's not true.

You're out of fellowship with the Lord,
but God is perfectly present in hell, and

he's, he's the one carrying out
punishment, and Satan is being punished in

hell. He's thrown in the lake of fire.

So, um, yeah, Dante's Inferno was just a
way to teach this. And what's happened is

we created this... You gotta remember, you
had Dante's Inferno, then you had like

Martin Luther, which was, he, you know,
when he would, I mentioned before, when he

would talk about devils,

w- we tend to think he meant

like the devil in the Bible, and he's
talking spiritually. But he was a German,

-he came from like German peasants.
-Mm.

They believed in like imps in the forest.
And so you just, you have to read people

in their context a little bit sometimes.
But, um, the actual

devil himself in the Bible is often
described in very different terms. He is

a, he is an adversary to the Lord. He's
known as the adversary, but,

uh, this isn't yin yang. There's no like,
God's not fighting against Satan as if

he's not gonna... He tells Job, he uses
Satan and humiliates Satan, and so, um,

yeah. It, it, Satan's a lot more like
Pharaoh-

-Mm-hmm
-... than anything else.

-Yeah.
-You know. So anyways.

Super helpful. Daphne, thanks for sending
in your question. I know you've sent in a

few, and I'm glad I finally got to one of
them. [laughs] So please continue to send

them in. I promise I'll get to all of
them.

-More adulation.
-I even have one back from March that is

-still on my list to get to-
-Ooh

... that you've sent in. Um, yeah, but
it's, it's a l- it's aligning with a topic

-that we have coming.
-I'd be offended if I were you, Daphne,

-that he had a question-
-[laughs]

... from March he hasn't gotten to. I
haven't seen any of these questions, so

-it's all Brett's fault, not mine.
-There, there's a lot, and, uh, thank you

for sending them all in. Not a lot from
her, but just, just a lot in general, so

-I'm trying to get to all of them.
-Gosh, if I were Daphne, I'd be like, "A

lot of questions unanswered from the
past."

I mean, that's a great p- that's a great
anti-podcast.

-Yeah. Great.
-Uh, this next question comes from Lorelai,

uh, sweet Lorelai. She's in my son's
Classical Conversations class, and I have

a fun st- story about her. [laughs] I have
to share it.

-That's a fun name.
-Uh-huh?

-That's a fun name.
-It's a great name. Even better spelling,

-L-O-R-E-L-A-I.
-Ooh.

Yeah, Lorelai. I never would've, never
would've spelled it like that,

or thought to spell it like that. I think
it's a great spelling. It's almost a, it

looks Hawaiian.

-Lorelai, yeah, that's great.
-Yeah.

What about Laura True?

-Uh, it's L-A-I.
-I know, I'm just kidding.

Yeah. It'd be, you, that wasn't that
great.

-It was bad.
-That was, that was a bad joke. You're a

-grandpa, it's okay.
-Yeah.

-Yeah. So-
-It like magnifies the dad jokes when you

-become a grandpa.
-[laughs]

-They get worse.
-They do.

-[laughs]
-Ugh.

But she, and so they have a p- a parent
day where you go and you can watch your

kids in class. In, in Classical
Conversations, they have to give a

-presentation every day. That's her-
-Yes. It's a lot of work

... that's, that's why, one of the reasons
I love it, is they get used to public

speaking at a very early age-

-Yeah
-... learn how to be articulate. And she's,

you know, just a sweet girl. She's in her
sundress and a little country girl.

And so I was expecting, you know, River's
always like Legos, and j- it's such boy,

girl, and I was expecting her to be like,
"Oh, here's some flowers I picked" or

something. [laughs] And she got up, and I,
I had to leave the room, 'cause I, it

just totally busted me.

And she gets up and she just slowly holds
up this picture, and she's like, "This is

a picture of me in the hospital 'cause I
busted my face on a trampoline." [laughs]

I just love- And it was just her mangled
face [laughs]

-[laughs] Oh.
-On Instagram like... And the teacher was

-like head down, ducked out of it.
-That's great.

Uh, and it was awesome. I'll, I will never
forget it. Such a good, such a good

story. So Lorelei, incredible
presentation. Um, the best one in CC all

-year.
-How old was she then?

-Seven or eight.
-Oh, right.

Yeah. So we have- She- This is a fantastic
question she sent in.

-We'll be the judge of that.
-Uh, yeah. [laughs]

-Just kidding, Lorelei. [laughs]
-Lorelei never s- This is a-

-No, I'm just kidding. Let's see-
-... horrible

... let's see what happens. Let's go.

[laughs] Uh, she says, "What about the
babies? We watched The Prince of Egypt

this weekend, and I was wondering, did the
babies that the Angel of Death took

during the Passover go to heaven with
God?"

-Mm.
-Fantastic question.

Yeah, it's a great question. So yeah, I
would recommend your parents read this

book and t- teach it to you, but it's
called, uh, Safe in the Arms of God by

John MacArthur. It's really great. Um, I
believe that all babies go to heaven,

period, end of story. If a, if someone
dies before... Remember we just said, this

question leads from the last one,

um,

th- there's, so our sin nature is why we
sin, okay? But we're judged for those sin

acts, uh, you know, for the, that's the
thing that we're actually judged for. In

other words, heaven and hell are not about
our nature, they're about our works, our

actions. That's, we just kinda covered
that, right? So like the, the kinds of

punishment you get. And so I'm one of
those people that believes that in the

Bible, and MacArthur makes this case too,
and that there's a, a point where kids

can... They, they, they commit sin from
the womb, in the sense that they are by

nature sinners, but there's a point in
which those, those sins are not accounted

to them because they are,

uh, don't know their right from wrong yet,
is essentially, right? So the, the, the

common term is an age of accountability,
and people get really turned up by this.

They say, "Well, it's not in the Bible,
age of accountability." Well, right, the

term isn't spelled out that way, but the
principle is certainly in the Bible.

David, when, um, his child dies, he says,
"I'll go to be with him." Well, why does

he say that?

You know, some people say, "Well, only
Christian babies." Well, they, the Bible

does not say that. It says babies. You
know, P- uh, God calls the Ninevites,

um, his innocent ones, the little kids and
stuff. So you have this scenario where

before, like to be a sin, what is a sin? A
sin is something that they say it's

missing the mark. It's not, but a sin is
an action that you know is sinful that you

do anyways, right? And so people say,
"Well, what about the guy the, in the cave

in Africa?"

Keep in mind, Romans takes care of this.
He knows what's sinful and does it

anyways, even according to his own views.
You could be a Buddhist that never hears

the gospel, and you know what's wrong, and
you do it anyways on purpose. No matter

what your standard is, you break it.

Um, but kids, there's a point where they
don't really understand consequences yet,

and so at what age

is that age of accountability? I don't
know. Couple of things in the Bible would

make it clear, um,

you know, it could be older than we think.
Uh, you know, if you look at the Book of

Numbers, for example, when they're in the
wilderness, the census doesn't count

anyone under the age of 20,

and when everyone falls, the children are
not accountable to the sins of their

parents ultimately, in one sense.

Um,

so, you know, maybe the age of
accountability is a lot older. I know a

lot of 18-year-olds that maybe aren't, you
know, would be... I would love to know

that. But, um, realistically, it's
probably

old enough for kids to truly know and
stand on their own. One of the things I

think is a helpful view is the sort of bar
mitzvah kind of view that the Jewish

people had. So Jesus went to the temple,
remember, when he was presented, but then

right around in Luke's gospel,

we see him go to the temple, like, and
he's presented there. And w- the whole

purpose of a bar mitzvah is when a young
Jewish boy or a bat mitzvah, Jewish girl,

when they'd be presented in the temple or
th- and they would then basically take

part as an adult. So they would read from
the Torah, they'd read a section, and so

then the rest of the whole group would see
them no longer merely as a child under

their parents, they'd be, like, recognized
as an adult, which was, like, the

privilege of participating as, as, as an
adult. In other words, at that point, they

would be fully, um, I guess culpable,
accountable to the rest of the people for

their Torah keeping, not just to their
parents. It's one of the reasons why at

our church, we don't baptize kids. Um,
parents, if you feel convicted, you wanna

baptize your kids, fine, it's up to you.
But as a church, we don't really baptize

children until they're a- after 12. Um,

can children be saved at an early age?
Absolutely. Um, and we just trust the

parents. The parents are the ones that are
dictating that. Um, but at 12, that's

when the child is announcing, I believe,
to everybody that they're not only a

Christian, but they're a Christian
standing on their own two feet. They're

still under their parents, they're still

part of the church, there's still the
normal, um, obligations we have in life,

but I think the church is recognizing at
that point too,

uh, that,

you know, a, a 13-year-old who's been
baptized, who's sinning, could also be

under church discipline. You know? Like,
there's...

So this question leads up a lot to it, but
I do think that babies that die in the

womb or, or, you know, um, or that die
before a certain age are, are almost

certainly in, in heaven.

The Bible's not explicit about it, but I
do think the person saying other than that

is the one that needs to make the case.

Um, I think if you had to settle on
something, that's the way you'd take it.

And if that's true, and I think it is, and
I think there's a, it's a reasonable case

to make, then the punishment on the
Egyptians wasn't a punishment on those

children, it was a punishment on all those
parents who lost their firstborn. But

remember, the firstborn dying in Egypt was
not just firstborn. It didn't say, "I'm

gonna kill the firstborn children."

He says, "I'm gonna kill the firstborn,"

which means plenty of adults died

in Egypt that were... So if, if, if we
were in Egypt, and I was an Egyptian, and

I wasn't inside the house of the blood, I
would've died. I'm the firstborn in my

family. I would've died. All the firstborn
died, so it wasn't just babies. I think

that's the thing we have to remember. Um,
and I would've gone to hell.

So a firstborn adult would go to hell. But
babies, yeah, I think that they do go to

heaven. I think they're safe in the arms
of God. I think MacArthur's book is a

great resource. And so,

I don't know. There's a lot more you could
say, but that's about, I kinda hit

-a lot at the same time on that, so.
-That's great.

Um, yeah, thanks Lorelei for sending in
your questions.

-It's a great question.
-Great question. Seansey just texted me.

[laughs] He said, "Raffle off the water
bottle, charge $10 per ticket." [laughs]

-That's so funny.
-That's a great... This one comes from

Carolyn. Uh, I love this question. I'm so
curious what you have to say because you

are a,

you're a board

game playing man.

Uh, the subject is playing games that
require deception.

-Yes.
-I once heard another Christian refuse to

play a board game because the gameplay
requires players to bluff and

intentionally mislead others. Most other
Christians I know do not share this

conviction with board games. However, I
recently watched the reality game show

Traitors, where deceiving other players is
not the only thing expected, but you are

to continually bound to the lie

about your identity. Even though it's just
a game, there are higher stakes and

real-life consequences, and it made me
wonder if I could still honor God and not

sin while playing as a shrewd and ruthless
player. If you were participating in a

game or competition where deception is an
agreed-upon part of the gameplay, how

would you approach it in a way that honors
God while also making an effort to

-actually win?
-Phenomenal question. Um, I think about

this a lot because I, I, I've been really
tempted to go on Survivor,

and

I, I actually... No, this is actually the
perfect venue to ask this. Like, I've been

really tempted to try to go on Survivor,
and I think I'd either get voted off right

-away, or I'd just-
-You know, there's a guy in our church

-who's applied 23 times.
-Yeah, I do.

And he's not made it.

Yeah, but

-I, I don't know. I think I'd make it.
-Okay.

I think they'd put me on.

-Should I do it?
-Yeah.

My big problem is, do I really wanna be,
"There's Pastor Matt in his underwear on

-TV-"
-You'll need-

"... for everybody all, every week," like
[laughs]

-Why is, why is-
-Sit there as like, uh, everyone's in their

-underwear all the time
-It'd be the, "Why has Matt not preached

-for six months?" "Oh, you'll see."
-Yeah, you'll see.

-[laughs]
-Does he even win? I'm like, so, and then

I'm over there, and there's this like...
And it's just, whatever. Um-

-Yeah, the difference.
-But anyways, but I guess the point is,

I think the question's great. I think that
there's, like anything, there's, there's,

um, it's not so black and white. I think
the games and the intention of a game is

part of it. I think television changes
things a bit because on television you're

playing a game, but you're also
representing yourself a little bit, and so

I think there's an element where

if you go on a TV show that's about lying,

maybe you're setting yourself up for
failure because the only way people will

know you is as the liar. I actually think,
but you gotta be careful, like, it's, I

don't, I don't know that it's, it's, it's
fair to equate that merely with a sin. For

example, if you get really strict about
not lying, does that mean that in warfare

you can't mislead people?

In other words, if, for example, when,

um, they wanted to finally take out the
people of Ai, and they acted like they

were retreating,

and then meanwhile they'd snuck people
into the back of the place, that's

deception, right? And God commands them to
do this in warfare. Um, if you wanna get

really strict, are you saying that that's
a lie? And so the argument about lying

isn't, uh, bearing false witness and the
rest,

it, obviously deception's part of warfare.
In other words, the realm, the category

that you're in sort of creates the
parameters where those things are not

okay, but sort of like part of the, that's
the deception. In a normal fight, like

when, like I mentioned jujitsu, when
you're doing jujitsu, almost all the time

I'm trying to trick people. Like, my style
of jujitsu is very deceptive. Like, I'm

giving things to people all the time. I
love to think of it as a negotiation where

you can have this thing, uh, you're just
gonna pay for it. Like, it's a, there's a

deception built in. But people could be
sensitive to that sometimes, but I think

sometimes we absolutize things in such a
way that the Bible doesn't.

Um,

you know, so,

uh,

I think when it comes to this, like we can
see this in a lot of categories where,

you know, um,

you know, husband of one wife, the Bible
says you shouldn't cheat on your spouse,

you shouldn't do things, and there's some
really good rules in place. You shouldn't

probably be alone with a woman that's not
your wife. But the Bible doesn't say that.

That's just a wise thing, but the Bible
doesn't say, "Don't be alone with a woman

that's not your wife." It just seems like
that's probably smart,

but I wouldn't say that's a sin. Does that
make sense? Like, we gotta be careful of,

like, we just don't wanna go further than
the Bible. So is playing a game a sin?

No, unless you're an, a Puritan who's,
talks about merriment and whatnot, that's

like, uh, that's not good. So there's so-
let me be careful. Some Puritans are like,

"Oh, you're playing with, uh, you know,
leisure and merriment and not for the

Lord." Like, all right, whatever. But
let's say you're, you're playing a game

which is ostensibly about bonding with
people, um, and if you're gonna play a

game that has deception in it, like
Balderdash, you're g- making up fake

definitions, I love that.

Uh, that's great. I do think that, that
there's a sense in which you can,

the game can be, um, unedifying, maybe you
would say. So maybe the realm of the

certain types of games, and that might be
up to you, and you can kinda tell in the

moment. If you feel uncomfortable, what
does it say? If you think it's a sin and

you do it anyways, well, it's a sin.

In other words, we just said what a sin
is. I know I shouldn't do it. I'm gonna do

it.

And so even if you're wrong, and it's
legal to do something before the Lord, and

you're like, "I know I shouldn't do it,
but I'm gonna do it anyways," like, well,

-then you just rebelled against God.
-Mm.

And that's, that's a problem. So, um, I
think with this, with this, with board

games and things like that, I think
deception's fine within reason. I think if

everyone playing kind of has that in
mind, um, what's the game, Mafia and the

-rest, like-
-Mm-hmm

... but I do think I'm a little bit
uncomfortable at times because you don't

wanna be super good at it in such a degree
where you're like, "Man, I'm so good at

these games." So I just think you're
playing that game a little bit. You're,

you have to basically h- carry two things.
I don't think it's necessarily a sin,

obviously, to lie in a game that's, like,
set up for that because you've created a

parameter where it's not really a lie, the
po- purpose is deception. However,

any game where you're using your
personality to persuade someone, you might

be making a reputation that you don't
want, and it might not be wise, and maybe

it does become a sin.

You know, I think I mentioned this to you
before, if you're playing a video game

and, um,

you know, you murder one of the NPCs, the
non-playable characters,

like, should you feel bad? Like, some
people are just going around just

slaughtering the villagers while they're
going. [laughs]

-[laughs]
-Like,

I actually feel uncomfortable with that.
If I play, like, a, a role-playing game

ever, I don't play that many games, but if
I do, I'm a little b- I always play

the good role. Now, some people are like,
"Oh, you're being a fuddy-duddy." I'm

like, "Okay, fine," but I just can't get
behind, like,

steal... Like, when they say, "Don't steal
someone's stuff in their house," like, I,

like, Google it, like, "Is this okay in
the game?"

-That's so-
-Like, "What's going on?" I'm, I'm, like,

-sensitive to that.
-Mm.

So your conscience comes in play, but I
think absolute sort of argument here, I

think that, I wish I could give you a
better answer. But I will say this,

Survivor, the TV shows,

I do think Christians put themselves in a
rough spot because every one of those

shows is painting somebody-

In, in life,

and

you gotta think through what reputation
you wanna put forward. Like, do you wanna

be known as the person that, like, lied to
everybody? Like, it's just a game. Sure,

that's fine. Just gotta be careful if
that's what you want, and a lot of these

things are trying to set you up for it.
That, I would even go so far as to say if

you're an actor, you know, if, if you play
a role in a movie and you're the bad guy

and you're really good at it, is that a
sin? Of course not. But I'm not sure I

wanna be known as, like, the bad guy in
everyone's psyche, personally speaking. An

actor's like, "No, I'm totally fine
playing that role," but like, I'm not sure

-I wanna play the role of, like-
-Darth Vader

-... the child rapist in the movie.
-Oh.

-You know what I mean? Like-
-Wow, okay. [laughs]

No, but there's, Christians have roles. I
mean, they say-

-Yeah
-... "Oh, we've got a new role coming in.

Do you wanna be Hitler for this new
movie?" I'm like, "Nah, I don't think I

-want to," you know? Like, I'm just-
-Mm

... so I think it's more about reputation,
uh, and that is a better category for me

than just the, the strict,

you know, 'cause again, I think deception
in war kinda introduces a category where

deception is sort of, like, part of it.

Yeah, on the, on, that's a, that's a great
answer. On the other end, what do you

think about these,

you know, people who've had, like Vin
Diesel, who h- or [laughs] Jim Caviezel,

who had-

-Vin D- Vin, Vin Diesel
-I think, I think Vin Diesel played Jesus-

-He did
-... in, uh, The Passion. Yeah, would,

would that be a role you're like, you, you
know, are you then imaging Christ?

Yeah, I, I actually feel uncomfortable
with that.

-Yeah.
-Yeah, I, I would,

but that's the point. I, I like, I like
The Passion of the Christ. I just-

-Mm-hmm
-... there's a, a level of discomfort where

I'm just like, "Yeah, I don't wanna play
with that." I'm just like, "I'm okay. I

-get it."
-Yeah, that's fair.

Like I, so I, I just think that
Christians, you have liberty, but just

because you can do something doesn't mean
you ought to. And so there's certain

things where it's like, well, should
anyone play that role? I'm like, I guess,

but here's what irritates me. The guy from
The Chosen

keeps doing, like, commercials being like,
basically like, "This is Jesus. Do you

-wanna do this?" I'm like-
-Mm-hmm

... and then they put him in some other
movie where he was, like, the Jesus figure

in that movie. I'm like, come on, dude.
Like,

you gotta be careful about your reputation
either way. You can't be like, "Jim

Caviezel here,

Jesus." What do you think about Je- you
know, I'm like-

The more I think about it, I would love to
see Vin Diesel-

-[laughs]
-... play Jesus in The Passion. [laughs]

-Vin Caviezel is the new guy.
-The new Passion.

-He's the, he's the-
-The new Passion movie where-

-Um, but-
-... Jesus gets off the ... [laughs]

But, you know, the, the big answer I think
is, is in, in the scripture, like,

i- the,

the Lord, re- remember the argument for
all this is that lordship is the answer.

So you just think to yourself,

we're not relating to God based on what's
permissible, but what

glorifies and honors the Lord. And so
think about marriage.

Yes, there's a, a covenant and a contract,
but it's not like how many days you get.

You, you want all of you. And so if you
can do that thing to the glory of God

truly with it, then you should do that
thing to the glory. You have freedom to do

that, but there's things you might find
that you're not really trying to do to the

glory of God that perhaps maybe you
shouldn't do. Um, and vain merriment, uh,

introduces elements where even in normal
games, are you sinning? Like

in golf,

if you start hitting bad shots, do you
have permission to get super mad?

Absolutely, I think so. Are you sinning?

Maybe, but

part of the experience, I believe, is to,
like, go through those bad experiences.

You shouldn't curse. You shouldn't break
your clubs. I don't think you're sinning

to get angry.

I think your anger can get so out of hand,
but, like, it's reasonable to be like,

"Ar, I'm the worst. I hate this," and then
ride through it and to, like, challenge

and come through it, right? So we gotta be
careful not to make everything so

sanctification where everyone's on, like,

you can be a human, you can make mistakes.
The thing that makes the Christian life

the Christian life isn't that we're
perfectly behaved, but that David, for

example, even after Bathsheba and the
rest, was known as a man after God's own

heart. I think the ar- argument here is
that we're pursuing the Lord, and that's

our, the pursuit, and I think a lot of
things will just kind of fall in line,

and I think that's the argument. What does
he say in Hebrews? "Fix our eyes upon the

author and perfecter of our faith."

Um, so scrupulosity can get in our way.
Games, I think Caroline's right. There's

some games that maybe you're uncomfortable
with. We used to do at church game night,

they'd have the Secret Hitler game,

and I kept getting the card where I had to
be Secret Hitler, and everyone's just

assuming I'm lying all the time. I'm like,
I felt uncomfortable because I'm like, I

don't wanna be known as a good liar.

So I would just be like, I feel like I'm
in a rock and a hard place, so I would

just stopped playing.

-There was a-
-But it's because of my role, too. Like, I,

you know, does that make sense? I don't
wanna be known as like, oh, that guy's

good at lying.

Um, there was a game at the last game
night, and I realized

halfway through it that it's just betting
on the ponies.

It's truly, you roll dice and these guys
move forward or backwards, and you're just

betting on ponies. [laughs] And Pastor
Paul gets so into it. He's like, "I just

wanna win." And then I look over, I'm
like, "I think we're just gambling. It's

-gambling for children."
-Yes.

-Uh-
-We're playing craps for kids.

-That's exactly it. [laughs]
-[laughs]

And to his point, he ended up winning the
first two races, and he was, [laughs] he

put, then he bet the farm and lost it all.

-Oh, gosh.
-That was-

Well, there's some lessons that, like, I
think what's fun about the Bible, though,

and then I think with TV shows and with
these things, like

it's not about... Like, it shows you the
ramifications of bad behavior. So I mean,

-like-
-Mm-hmm

... I mentioned Survivor. Like, when
people act like idiots, everyone kind of

-sees that you're, like, an idiot.
-Yeah.

So I, I mean, could I go on Survivor?
Yeah. Would I be

t- treading carefully, recognizing my
reputation?

-Mm.
-Like, one of the things I would say is

most of these people that make bad moves,
I'm like, if I was their employer and I

saw them, I'm like, "That person's fired
when they get back." I'm like, "That's

-crazy."
-Yeah.

There's, but they're like, "No, they're
just playing a game." I'm like, "I don't

-like that."
-Mm-hmm.

So you just don't wanna be known as so
manipulative or so this. Like, that's the

reputation. You gotta be careful, I think,

being like, "Hey, everyone, look at me.
Watch me play this. I'm going to be known

for how good I am at lying." Oof.

Matt, you're in a, say you're in a
four-man scramble.

Not even that. You're golfing with four
people. You're all golfing against one

another.

It has not been determined beforehand that
you cannot improve your lie. Do you

improve your lie?

It's not been stated before you play the
round.

I don't c- for, well, it j- I, honestly, I
don't care. Like, for me personally, I

kind of read the room, but I, I actually
don't. I'm pretty, but I like the

-brutality of this.
-Mm-hmm.

Um, but I've played with people that kick
their ball on the fairway, and it's, I'm

like, and I'm okay with it

... that they do that, but secretly

I just feel superior and more righteous
than them. [laughs]

-[laughs]
-But no, I mean-

-Yeah
-... I will say this though. I will say one

of the things I like about the psychology
of sports and games and the rest, is that

there's a microcosm in them. Uh, the, the
big thing in golf is, like, you take

mulligans. You get to go again. I'm still
the philosophy, I'm a beginner,

that things like getting off the tee box,
again, it's like within reason, you know,

if you can't get off the t- like let them
take another shot, don't penalize it. But

then when you go out to play, like, you
need to, in general, play everything, no

matter how bad because then y- otherwise
you'll never improve.

-Mm.
-You'll be like, "Hey, I feel like I've

gotten better, but I'm hitting the same
scores." Yeah, because your last scores

-you were adding this and giving yourself-
-Yeah

... putts. So it's good for you to kind of
feel miserable sometimes, so you can,

like, see the improvement. And, and, uh,
but most of us, that's why people never

lose weight, that's why people never get
in shape, because we never wanna step on

-the scale and see the bad number.
-Yeah.

"Oh, I had a bad week." You just, at some
point you gotta demystify it. You gotta

-look at it, l- deal in what is and-
-Surfing's the-

-... make a correction
-... surfing's the same way. You get good

-at surfing by surfing on bad days.
-Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm gonna do one more question because we
had a low banter week, and I just wanna

get through more of these questions. They
just keep stacking up.

-Bruce Banner.
-This comes, this comes from Sean F.

Self-defense and Christians, definitely
your wheelhouse. After seeing the news

story and video of the pastor in Louisiana
who physically defended his family-

-Yeah, I love that
-... from a man threatening them, it got me

thinking about where a Christian should
draw the line when it comes to

self-defense and violence. Jesus tells us
to turn the other cheek, but we also see

some people praising this pastor for
protecting his family. As a Christian man,

when it is appro- when is it appropriate
to use force to defend ourselves, our

families, or innocent people? How do we
reconcile Jesus' command about loving our

enemies with the responsibility to protect
those in our care? Personally, I think

that Christians should cultivate both
strength and self-control. I'd love to see

more believers who have the fruit of the
Spirit, but are also capable of protecting

-others if necessary.
-Yeah.

My personal view is that every Chri- every
responsible Christian should consider a

CCW and at least a blue b- belt level in
jujitsu, but I realize that's probably not

the prevailing view in many churches.

Yeah, I mean, I think that, I'm a big f- I
mean, the Second Amendment, you wanna be

a good citizen, I think you should be
able, you, you have the f- r- right and

freedom. I would love the idea for the
constitutional carry, that you just be

able to have a gun. Um, I'm a big fan of
that. But I don't carry a gun,

and the only reason for me personally is
because t- twofold. One, um,

decision fatigue. I spend a lot of time
doing the jujitsu. I don't wanna think in

a situation of all the decisions on how
serious it needs to be. Does that make

-sense? Like-
-Mm-hmm

... okay, like, uh, you know, I, I own,

ostensibly, let's say I did own a gun.
Like, I could go get it to defend my f-

whatever. But, like, in general and out
and about, um,

you know, th- there's a logic that people
ought to be able to, to carry. Amen.

Um, me personally, one of the things I
like about jujitsu is I think pastors and

Christians ought to be able to defend
themselves and others. The, the argument

of loving your enemy doesn't mean being a
pushover. Um,

you know, the, the argument...

That's the same type of thing where it
says obeying your government doesn't mean

that you don't, like when, when they
falsely arrested Paul, he's like, "What's

up?" And he challenged them, and he went
to Caesar. He, he went through the, the

realm of things. I think the self-defense
laws in our country, a Christian can

follow. I think that's... The, the basic
idea of a Christian doing this is

don't wield the sword. Don't take
vengeance.

Um, this guy wasn't taking vengeance. He
was protecting his family. Like,

there's...

That's great, right? Like, you know, the,
the argument of that he shouldn't do it,

I'm just not sure biblically how someone
would make it. There's no argument for

passivity in the scripture. Jesus walked
willingly to the cross. He wasn't like...

In other words, to be gentle, to be meek
implies that you have the ability to do

violence.

If you just say to someone, "Be meek,"

or to be gentle that can't fight, th- th-
that, it's meaningless. You're basically

just, you're just weak.

But it's a person that's capable of
violence and strength that's then told,

that's... The fruit of the Spirit is
someone that's capable of violence and

strength,

and then having self-control over that.
And martial arts actually gives you that.

I think that you're, I'm less likely to
get into an altercation because I know how

to fight, you know? Like, and the pastor,
I, I watched a little bit of the video. I

thought it was great. I think he handled
himself fine. I do think,

you know, again, just like with the, the
game thing,

it, the Bible's all about not just our
actions, but our, the, the ramifications,

the reputations we have. And so,

you know, depending on the scenario, um,

I'm gonna protect my family, and depending
on the severity of it. I think that's the

problem with the video is that it, people
were like, "It, like, seems too severe."

Um,

the optics of someone punching them in the
face when they're down is not something

people like to see. But because they don't
get the backstory. They don't see the

-threat.
-Mm-hmm.

Um, I do think that the more you know and
the better you're able to fight, the more

you can do so safely, if that makes sense.
Th- in other words,

let, let me just say this. I know no one
wants to hear this, but let me just do

this for a second. The thing I like about
jujitsu truly, but o- other arts are like

this, but the thing I like about jujitsu
is that you can train at full speed

against somebody that, um,

that is your friend, you know? And you can
do it full speed, full results. So

there's never, like, hypothetical. It's
never like, "Oh, God, I would have kicked

you." You can do, you get full practice,
and because it's a safe environment, you

can tap out. You can, uh, you know, they,
that's the basic th- thing, because of the

tap out, you basically create a scenario
where you can go full speed and everyone's

safe. But as soon as you leave the, the,
the school and you train, when you're out

on the street, so to speak,

I get to determine when it stops. There's
no taps. I'm, I'm, I learned a skill where

I could be at a wedding and someone's
getting, drunk Uncle Joey's getting out of

hand, and I can gently subdue him and put
him into a place where he can't move.

And so think about it. Every move that you
get to, a choke hold or an arm bar or

whatever,

those are, if I just did all the way. You
hold a choke, they die. You do an arm bar,

their arm's broken. And you can do it
very rapidly. And so jujitsu to me is the

ultimate, in this case as a Christian,
because I, it's scalable. I get to choose

how far I wanna go, and because I'm good
at it now,

I, I... That's the part that's hard for
people that don't do it, is like, it's

scary when you realize that person has
mastered you. You have to do what they

want. They make you submit in that moment.
But in real life, you can decide. You can

say, "Hey, I don't wanna..." There's a
guy actually, um, in San Diego that, he

was an ADCC jujitsu guy, and he gets,
um... Basically, this guy was following

him around downtown San Diego and kept
trying to fight him.

And you have the whole thing on video. He
went on interviews

and, uh, he's a local. And this guy's a

good jujitsu fighter, and this, like,
street dude just keeps coming after him,

coming after him. And finally, he just
turns around, the guy takes a swing,

and I think he freaks out. He basically
takes the guy down and then [laughs]

arm bars him. He breaks his arm. It's all
on video.

And then I, I think he freaks out because
once the guy's arm breaks, 'cause you-

people tap. You don't break limbs
typically.

-Mm-hmm.
-Not on purpose.

The guy's arm breaks and I guess the guy,
he freaks out and he just bro- broke it,

like, every direction and then started
hitting him and just-

-Oh, my goodness
-... doing... And I'm like, "Oh, my gosh."

I think his adrenaline spiked. That would
be what I'd call a lack of self-control.

Um,

you know, the more you know how to do
violence, the less you'd probably have to

do it. So I think that there's, that, you
know, David, uh, says in this one of the

Psalms, like, God taught him how to wield,
like, uh, to shoot the bow. He, he st-

strengthened his hand for war. At one
point, God tells the Israelites, "I drove

them out slowly so you can learn how to do
war."

Um, and so God's not against, you know,
people doing this and knowing how to fight

and protect their families and their
nations and their swords. I just think

having the categories of where it's
effective. Vengeance isn't right. It's the

government that wields the sword. We're
not just Batman running around doing

vigilantism. But being able to protect
your family, especially according to the,

the, the rule of law, is reasonable,

and, uh, but even if it's not. If
someone's trying to come against my

family, I'm gonna protect them and I'll go
to jail for it. That, that'd be following

the law. Like, I'll take the consequence,
you know? Um-

On the flip side, is that more or less

righteous than a guy breaks in your house
and you say, "You know what? Everything I

have is Christ. Go ahead and take whatever
you want."

-Yeah.
-I- or are they...

Is there, is it an equal playing field
based on the person's conviction?

I wanna be really careful here, but I'm
gonna say this because it's the hot take.

I just think a man

who's so weak that he can't protect his
family and doesn't protect his family has

abdicated his responsibility as a man,

biblically.

Like,

the, the, the, the, the Bible doesn't even
spell it out. It's, it's just

the man's supposed to provide for, pr- to
protect. It's like you see it all

throughout, in the masculine, in the
scripture. Like,

if... Now, I understand that not
everyone's built the same. Not everyone

has a opportunity like these guys are
gonna be. I, like, I understand, like,

getting... I'll give you an example.

In the Old Testament, there's this law
about rape,

and it says that if, uh, someone is raped
in the city and she doesn't cry out,

she's actually not, she's, she's kinda
held guilty. It's not... But if she's in

the countryside, it doesn't matter. She-
the, the, the pers- the perpetrator is,

that rapes her is bad. But if it's in the
city, she's required to cry out. In other

words, to try.

You don't just go with it. You're not just
like, "Okay, I'll just go with it." The,

in other words, she's, she's means to
fight back, to resist.

Um,

and that would make it where it's like
she's not a participant. She's... Does it

make sense? I think the same thing is true
for these kinds of things. Like, you're

supposed to support your family. It's,
it's loving to protect your family. It's

loving to do these things. Um, you know,
obviously, there's a line that you can go

too far, but I think your ability to
protect your family is important. I think

the person has the conviction not to,

th- I'm not their Lord. They, that's like,
okay, go for it.

I wouldn't wanna be married to that person
if I was a woman, and

if someone's convicted that way, they're,
I don't think they're...

They're gonna answer to the Lord for that,
that's all. I, but my personal opinion is

I think they've abdicated their position
as a, a man who's, has a role to do, and

my kids feel safe 'cause they know I can
protect them. And that's an illusion if

you're not willing to. Does it make sense?
Even if you're gonna get beat up, I get

it, but, like, does that mean that if
you're getting mugged, you're gonna try to

be Batman and stop it? No, give the guy
your wallet and live and, uh, fight

another day. Does that make sense? Like,
there's a difference in these things.

Like, wisdom is always the thing we're
trying to find. So is, what's the wise

course of action? Well, did the pastor
need to beat that guy up? I don't really

know the story that carefully. Um, could
he have gotten a restraint? I don't know.

You know, coulda, shoulda, woulda. I, I
don't think that this is, uh,

from the little I know about it, that's
the nice thing about the jujitsu, is I

feel like I could have nicely subdued this
guy.

Um, but

-yeah.
-Yeah.

Yeah, my adrenaline doesn't go up, in
other words, in that situation, whereas in

-the past-
-Sure

... maybe it would have and I would've
done something more violent, I guess.

-Mm-hmm.
-Whereas now, th- that's maybe one of the

negatives, but the, it's also a positive
'cause you, like, can think-

-Mm-hmm
-... in those scary situations 'cause

they're not so scary.

Yeah. That actually, the jujitsu topic and
competing in jujitsu blends right into

the topic for this week for you, which is
failure.

-[laughs]
-And

[laughs]

-oh, that paired so well.
-Oh, thank you.

Uh, sometimes I watch a video of you
getting beat, like, 10 years ago.

-Mm.
-It just pops up on my phone occasionally.

That's how you get good at jujitsu. You
have to lose.

-That, that's ex- great answer.
-Mm-hmm.

Uh, so the first question on failure is,
why does God allow Christians to fail?

-No.
-I'm not talking about moral failure. I'll

-bring that up later, but just in general.
-Yeah. Okay. So they made a... There's a

great example. Um,

they had a thing called the biosphere

y- years ago, where they created this,
like, little, I don't know, think of it

-like a-
-BioDome

... BioDome?

Is it not the biosphere?

Just, I mean, it's, I think BioD- BioDome
was a movie with Pauly Shore.

-Okay. Well-
-But I think it's the same thing, BioDome

-and biosphere
-... I think it's called the biosphere.

Yeah.

Anyways, they had this thing where they
tried to create all, like, the Earth,

essentially, in, like, a snow globe type,
like, I don't know-

-Dome
-... 20 square mile dome-

-Yeah
-... where they tried to create all the

situations of Earth, and they're gonna do
all these experiments. And what they s-

what happened is all the trees, once they
got to a certain height, started falling

over, and they couldn't figure out what to
do. You know, was it the roots? Was it

the soil? Was it the kind of tree? Like,
why do their trees keep falling down?

And it turned out they just, because they
need storms.

They needed, like, storms need trees to be
strong, and so God gives us trials and

tribulations. What did he say?

"Consider it pure joy," James says,
"because you know it's producing

steadfastness." Now, that sounds terrible
when you face trials, but when you think

of a trial like

a, a, a race or jujitsu or you think of it
as a thing-

I'm not... I do consider it pure joy when
I see, like, an opponent that I get to go

fight or, you know, spra- spar with, uh,
because I know that I'm gonna get better.

And if they're better,

like when you're doing jujitsu, you wanna
roll with the best person in the room, and

you wanna get beat if you can.

Um, not all the time, but you want them
to, like, test you because you get

stronger from it. And you... and I think
the reason people struggle with succeeding

is that they're afraid to fail, and you-
the only way you're good at stuff is you

have to fail. In fact,

if I was telling my son this right now,
and my daughters this, and

anybody in church that wants to really
succeed at something, I... You gotta fail

as fast as you can, as early as you can,
and as often as you can so that you can

get that out of the way.

You gotta get the ego out of the way,

um,

so you learn and grow. And so God lets us
f- lets us

fail and falter because we get stronger,
and we, you know, we, we, we... But what

does getting stronger in the Christian
life look like? We get more dependent on

him.

We get... So what does failure look like?
Well, Peter getting a little high on his

hog. "Even if everyone else betrays you,
I'll never do it." And God's like, "You're

gonna deny me three times this very
night." And he wants him to see the

failure so that when Peter next says, "You
know I love you, but not the way you

think,"

[laughs] you know, God's like, "Okay, now
feed my sheep." That was actually the

place he needed to be. Moses thought he
was a somebody, and goes and kills

someone, tries to do it himself, and God
lets Moses fail, flees as a vigilante into

the wilderness to learn that he was a
nobody.

-Mm.
-So that God could take a somebody who had

to learn he was a nobody, so he could
finally be used, uh, in God's hands. And

that's kind of when Noah comes- or N- M-
Moses comes back, rather. He's now ready.

God let him fail so that he's usable in
that way. So

I think often one of our biggest
challenges in the Christian life is that

we're too, quote-unquote, strong for our
own good.

We're too independent. Um, and this even
comes into, like, some- uh, we're doing...

I can't believe that one sin. I'm trying
to work this out, and God's like, "Get

your eyes off yourself." The, your failure
is supposed to make, remind you that

you're not all that. Get your eyes on him,
and you get better and better at that.

And so it's not just strength, but in the
realm of sports and the realms of

exercise, it is a good microcosm of, like,
you get better through failure. Like,

it... And most people don't get better at
things, truly. A- and I mean that. With,

fr- th- this is, like, the secret

in so many ways to, like,

success, is that most people that are
mediocre are mediocre because they're,

they don't wanna ever fail. They don't
wanna try n- any new things, and they

don't wanna get better at anything because
they're not willing to fail. They don't

wanna look bad. They wanna be perceived
as, uh, awesome. It's like that Troy

quote, and he's li- you know, like,
"That's why no one's ever gonna remember

your name." You know? Um,

so anyways.

Why do faithful Christians still
experience failure, and is failure part of

God's plan for my life?

Yes, failure is f- part of God's plan for
your life. Because what would the opposite

be? What does success look like? It w- f-
the, the Christian life is falling

upwards.

I mean, that's, that's

... It, it's...

You're not, like...

Y-

the, the, the, the fear of failure, again,
keeps us stuck. Why does he let us? A

part, absolutely it's part of the
Christian life, and he lets us do it again

because we become, that's how we become
more like him, you know?

Um, but we have to reframe. When you...

You could get kind of cute about it, but
you're trying to reframe failure a little

bit. We gotta be careful. We're not
talking about moral failure here

necessarily. But even God can use even
that. But, you know, you f- you try to do

something, and then you realize your
limitations. Um,

the most dangerous person, let's go back
to this, 'cause it's, it's the best

analogy. It's one, it's one of the things
I love about all this

is the analogous nature of it. And it's,
and so I always think of these. They go

back and forth so much.

I'm a... I can f- like, fight and beat
people up because I know my limits.

Most people don't. Most people think they,
they do these street interviews all the

time. They interview people, like, and
every guy thinks they can fight. Everyone.

[laughs]

And every person's deluded. Everyone's
like, "I can see red." Basically, no one

knows their limits, even a lot of martial
artists. That's what people hated jujitsu

in the beginning, 'cause all these guys
were like, "I've been doing karate for,

for 30 years." But it was all
hypotheticals, like, "I guess I would do

this," but they don't know their limits.
They don't know what it's like. "I've

learned to, you k- kick the knee and hit
the throat." I'm like, "How many throats

have you hit?" It's all theoretical. They
don't know their limits. And so what

happens is they don't know if they're
gonna freeze up. They don't know what it

feels like. They don't know... They're
just stuck. Knowing your limits is a

dangerous thing because a man that knows
his limits, a woman that knows her limits,

uh,

often you're not even at them.

You know? Like, that, that's a big part of
getting submitted. You realize, "Wait,

I'm not actually choking. That hurts, but
that's just pain. Now, that's okay." But

then sometimes you, like, you, you break
something.

-Like, I've broken both hands.
-Hmm.

I broke four fingers. I broke four ribs.
Like, sometimes from silly things, but

sometimes from, "Oh, that's a limit,"

and you learned it. And so then you get
stronger. And what's interesting is

there's a thing called Wolff's law. When
your bones break, they heal back stronger.

Mm.

And so that's why, like, Thai fighters,
they would, like, condition their shins.

They're getting little microfractures in
their shins, and the bone, when it heals,

it heals back stronger. So they're
actually literally making their shin more

dangerous.

That's the whole, when they do the rolling
pin on their shin, that's what that's

-about.
-Yeah. What's-

But phen- phenomenal. Awesome. But
ligaments don't do that. Bones do.

-Okay.
-So.

'Cause I was like, I thought of those guys
in somewhere, and they just, like, people

just kicked them in the crotch, like,
over and over and over.

That's what they're trying to play, but
that's stupid. That's, like-

-Just-
-... weird Eastern stuff

... I wanna, I wanna be the guy who gets
to kick them. [laughs]

Yeah. So, uh, so you gotta understand. So
I, I'll say this. There's a, there's an

interesting conversation about this, and
there's too many people that talk about it

all the time, but, like, I'm interested
in this. I know about it. It's fun. Um,

so Chinese martial arts in general, up to
this point, um, there's been a big shift

because when the first UFC came out back
in '93, I think it was,

um, the Gracies owned it, and they, they
had the first UFC, and they wanted to

showcase jujitsu, and so it was that
eight-man tournament. And it just really,

I hated jujitsu because I wanted to see
ninjas fighting. I was like, "Man, these

guys are gonna fight." And I remember we
took a car up to my buddy's house up in

San Bernardino to go watch, you know, the
UFC, and I was so excited,

and, uh, I hated- ... Hoist Gracie because
he ruined the whole thing. I was like,

"Oh, they've got a ninja? They've got a
guy who's like a brawler?" I'm like, "I

wanna see Tank Abbott get beat by the
ninja guy." And then no one, everyone was

just sloppy, and

the first guy got a tooth in his foot when
he kicked him in the face. It was amazing

also.

Um, but the, uh,

[sighs] when you, when you said... What
was we talking about? I just lost it with

-the UFC thing.
-We're talking about failure and is the-

No, no. You just asked something really
good,

and I just lost it 'cause I got lost in
that memory right there for a second.

That's not good. Um, why do faithful
Christians experience failure?

No, no, no. Come up- That was way a long
time ago.

-[laughs]
-We're, like, so far down the road on that

-one.
-I don't know.

-Um-
-I forget.

How did we just do that?

-Uh, Chauncey?
-No, no, no. It's... We got it.

-Oh.
-We got it. We got it. We got it. Um,

um,

talking about the fighting part, and
then... Oh,

so

th- th- what happens is people don't know
their limits. Is that what we were talking

-about, people don't know their limits?
-You, you were talking about that, yeah.

You, everyone should be hearing about
this. This is right.

-[laughs]
-Um, and so what happens is it was all

theoretical, so it gets sloppy. So
everyone thinks, "Oh, here's who gonna

fight," so Chinese martial artists. That's
what I was saying. They had a problem

because all their masters, their karate
masters, had secret fights. They're like,

"Oh, he, my master, he's, he's so deadly
and dangerous. You could never face him

because he's had s- uh, 50 underground
fights." And they're like, okay. So it's

all it builds this mystique where, like,
the, you know, the fat karate instructor

that's sitting there that's never like...
Oh, he's super scary.

-Mm-hmm.
-He's got the stuff. And unfortunately, it

never gets tested, and so it becomes,
like,

uh, sort of like,

you know, in- inbred. Like, it just over
time becomes a, a caricature of itself

'cause it's never tested. It's never...
They call it, um,

uh,

there's never, like, real... There's never
reality to it. So it never gets tested,

so it never develops. Um, so MMA has been
really kind of a, a revolution because

it's created a scenario where it's
developed. Now, it's gotten so rules-based

that it does, it has somewhat lost what
its original purpose was. But, like,

there's enough venues now for people to...
realism to find out and test and get

better because you learn limits, and the
Christian life is like that in so many

ways. So you have to... It's not a
theoretical thing. A lot of people will go

online, and, and this happens all the
time.

I'll, I know some people that

they have lived their life like a fool,

and if you hear this, you know who I'm
talking about. I'm talking about you. You

know who I'm talking about. There's,
there's... I know some people that live

like, made foolish decisions.

But man, they're super a- up- upset about
Israel.

-Mm.
-And they wanna call me up with all the

conspiracies about the Jews and this and
that, and I'm like, "Bro, like, you're a

fool." In other words, they feel safe in
the hypothetical. They can be hardcore

about the scrupulosity of, like, you know,
did you understand what this said about

this and Candace Owens that, and I'm like,

the life they're living is so ter... So
this is a, this is a person that's afraid

to fail,

and so what they do is they live really
confidently in the hypothetical. It's why

everyone's so hardcore on the internet.
But in real life,

their life is full of failures, but rather
than face those failures and grow, they

just, they're heroes online, and they just
stay that way, and so they remain a fool.

A fool is someone who refuses to learn, a
re- per- someone, person who refuses to

listen but then spouts their mouth.

And so that's a fool and their folly when
they're doing that, and we live in a very

foolish culture where everyone can be a
hero online. We, we do this. All the

cultures that you s- look at online are
really us getting smaller and smaller and

more and more niche so that we can be the
king of something.

Like, oh, this guy's the king of
pickleball. Give me a break.

-You know what I mean?
-Yeah.

We just make our pond smaller and smaller
and smaller so we could be a big fish, and

then you're gonna get old and die
anyways. Like it-

Do you think a fa- a fear of failure is a
lack of trust in the Lord, or can a, can a

Christian just,

like, live a very steady,

non-risk, very risk-averse life and still
glorify God in their life?

I say this to my kids growing up. When
they fail or they do something wrong, I'm

like, "Yeah, that was wrong, what you
did." And they're like, "I can't believe I

did." I'm like, "But stop. You're
supposed to make those mistakes. You're a

kid." W- the arrogance is you thinking
that you shouldn't make them.

-Hmm.
-It's arrogant to think that you shouldn't

act like a kid and do stupid kid stuff.
Like, you're allowed to do k- to stupid

kid stuff. That's part of growing up. I
think the fear of failure is, um, has

nothing to do with God with a big G, has
everything to do with god with a little g.

See, all of us have the impression that
we're way better than we are, and fear of

failure is really just a fear of letting
everyone know that, or ourselves. We never

want to admit to ourselves that we're
maybe not good 'cause we don't try hard or

we don't do this. In fact, this is true
for a lot of people. Um, they don't wanna

try hard. This is... You know where I saw
this in myself was going for the Olympics.

I love, I love that you introduced it with
failure because I'm a failed athlete in

so many ways, and I embrace it. And I say
that because i- and this sounds arrogant.

I'm a better athlete than most of the
people that I talk to, and I can say that

'cause I've gone to the limit and failed.
Um,

most people are so afraid of failure. It's
all hypothetical. But when I first said,

"Hey, I'm gonna go for the Olympics," the
scariest part of it is you don't

accidentally make your way there. You have
to do it when you're far away from it.

And

once you say it,

it's like now you're like, "Okay, now I've
organized my life around it. What if I do

all this?" I remember the first time I
had this race,

and I finally organized my life to, like,

row and, and I'm, this is my full-time
gig. And I showed up at this race. My wife

shows up, my... We were not married yet.
My

fiance, my, my dad, my, were there. They
were there at this race. And my, um, boat

got this, like,

uh, seaweed stuck in the skeg, and I
finished dead last at this race. And so

all these people are there, and I didn't
get to do the next...

We did these races once a month to, like,
pick your place in the national team stuff

for the Olympics,

as they were called speed orders. It was
at Princeton. And my, my boat just,

I came in dead last, and all the people
are there.

And

all I could think of the whole time was
the humiliation of it.

W- I had seaweed on my boat, like, truly.

But I can't, I could say it, but if I say
it, it looks like I'm making an excuse. So

you just have to own it and let, and you
have to go through the month letting

everyone think that, like, "Man, he really
went for it. He's just not, not good at

it." And you have to l- you have to wear
it.

-Hmm.
-You have to own it. And

it hurts, and, but it gives you... It's
gonna either make you quit, or it's gonna

give you that hunger to come out and just,
like... There's a, there's a sort of,

like-

And then the Christian life is like that
too.

Y- you get up, you fail and you get up.
Like, me going in the pulpit to preach

isn't because I've never made mistakes.
I'm a person who, like, relies on the

Lord. I've...

Do you know what I mean? Like, you know
it. You're gonna preach a sermon about

marriage, and you're gonna get in a fight
with your wife that night. Like, and then

you think, "I'm unworthy." Yeah, that's
not the lesson. You were never worthy. I'm

preaching to myself. If I'm not preaching
to myself, I'm not actually a- adequately

preaching to everyone else. I'm gonna be
distant from them. It's gonna seem like a

lecture. But it comes alive when you
realize I'm alongside you.

I'm a failure like you. I, in fact, the
priests had to offer a sacrifice for

themselves to remind them before everyone
else that I need the thing that I'm

bringing for everyone else, and then they
would wear the ephod with everyone else on

their shoul- chest as they'd come in. The
only person that didn't need to see their

own failure was Jesus,

who bore us before, like, as a person that
didn't fail. That's the whole point of

Hebrews, as a, a faithful high priest, but
one who hasn't failed, but yet can

identify with all the temptations we've
had. So, um, yeah, the big subject,

obviously I'm passionate about it, but
like I'm, I'm a big proponent of failing

well. In fact,

most people would say I'm competitive,

and that's sort of true.

People, people that know me are scoffing
right now. "No, what are you talking

about? Matt's so competitive."

I love to... If someone beats me at a game
or does something, I wanna play it over

and over and over again. They think, "Oh,
he just wants to do it till he wins." Kind

of.

I love losing. Like I, I, I can do it over
and over again. I just love conquering

and figuring out how to win it. I'm just
not afraid to lose over and over again.

I'm not afraid to fail. I'm not afraid to
fail publicly when I try things, but

that's a skill. Um, I think a lot of
people are afraid to be seen less than

they are, but that really is because they
think that people think that they're

better than they are, and they think
they're better than they are. And if they

were just

learn that the process of actually
becoming better is admitting that,

like, you're fat, out of shape, and lazy
because you chose that.

-Yeah.
-And so-

You mentioned, yeah, f- learning how to
deal with failure and failing is a skill

set. How do they work on that skill set?
Like, they just do things that they're

-going to fail at more and more? [laughs]
-Well,

kind of. I mean, sometimes people are
deluded. They're like, "I keep trying,

trying out for American Idol, and I keep
losing." I'm like, "Okay, you gotta get

lessons,

and you gotta..." So, so

if, if I said to you...

I'll give you a g- example using golf,
'cause we both are playing golf now and-

Mm-hmm

... you're very good at it, and I'm not.

But there's a lot of shots where I could
tell you right now, and this is personal,

so it's more fun,

you've been playing for so many years,
you're gonna have a hard time improving

-because you're not willing to get worse.
-Mm-hmm.

That, truly, I have a, I have a superpower
you don't have. I can get so bad, and

I'm, I, I have, I, it is much easier for
me to get much better

than you right now because for you to get
better, you have to, like, break out of

the shell and fail a lot.

Um,

and, and you know that. You're like,
"I've, I've achieved," you know, you've

achieved a level where I can coast this,
have fun, and play, but I'm at the place

where I'm so bad that I can fail so
easily, but I can also get good because of

that. I think that's the challenge for
most people. It's not if they've started

something, you have to start it and then
make the right moves to do it, but you

can't just be naive. "Well, I keep signing
up for the PGA, and I keep failing, but

I'm gonna keep going." Like, it's stupid.
If you're serious, and I said to you,

"If I was your coach at golf," and I said,
"I wanna make you better. I have a secret

way to do it. You're about to do the next
shot." And I said, "I'll give you 1,000

bucks if you get it here." Would you
change the s- shot selection? I guarantee

you would. You probably wouldn't hit
driver on that one hole because, "Well,

it's 1,000 bucks. I'd do it." I'm like,

"So the question is, do you wanna get
better?" Most people, the answer is no.

-Hmm.
-The answer isn't that they're failing.

It's that they don't actually wanna get
better, so they're not gonna do the thing

to get better. So the way you can test
yourself is if you had a, if someone's

gonna pay you 1,000 bucks to do that,
would you do it? Like, that's a really

helpful question. And then you have to
admit to yourself, "Actually, maybe I

don't wanna get better, so I have fun."
Okay, own it.

Um, the problem is there's a lot of things
where you have to get better.

So, like, in the Bible,

you don't have a choice. You have to get
better at reading the Bible.

So you can't say, "I tried to read it.
It's not good." I'm like, "Yeah, but you

don't read anything. You need to learn how
to read." "Oh, I'm just not interested in

that." You don't have a choice. You need
to do it. It, it, like, in other words, if

I say to you, "Well, this is the greatest
treasure in the world, and you're gonna

have all the blessings from it," and you
say, "I'm not interested," at some point,

that should condemn you. And then
everyone's like, "Well, I don't, I fail so

much." I'm like, "'Cause you don't,
you're not really taking it serious."

-Mm-hmm.
-And so that means

if I said to you, "I'll give you a million
dollars to figure out how to do this in

six months," I bet you'd figure it out.
And so you'd really test people's mettle.

-Mm-hmm.
-Um, I do this in counseling all the time

with failure. You say, "Oh, they just need
to try and succeed."

W- it's when you say, "I'm gonna do it for
the million dollars," that's where the

failure is real, and you learn from it. In
other words,

in counseling, I do this all the time.
Husband and wife, they're having a hard

time, and maybe you've heard me say it. I
said, "Okay, imagine a game show where I

said, 'I'm gonna give you, I'm hiring you
for a role acting.'" And I said, "For this

role, it's gonna be hidden cameras, and
all you have to do is be the husband the

Bible asks you to be, no matter how your
wife says, what she does, no matter what

she does, all the cameras are watching,
um, 30 days. Can you be this husband, no

matter... Can you act

in this role, and you get $30 million, and
everyone's watching?" You're like, "I can

do that." I'm like, "Cool.

The Bible says to do this."

-Do, do you see what I'm saying? Like-
-Mm-hmm

... we don't really want to, but here's
where failure is real. So the fact is most

people aren't really wanting to succeed.
But let's say they do. Let's say you say,

"Okay, I do wanna succeed. I wanna do that
thing," and then you fail. You say, "I

know the cameras are running. I know the
$30 million is coming. I know the thing,"

and then you fail. Well, that hurts
differently, and then you learn.

-Hmm.
-So I think for most people, the first step

is wanting to succeed at something,
picking that thing, and actually wanting

to succeed,

and then the failures start to make you
learn because you're motivated. The person

that's signing up for the American Idol
but never practicing doesn't really wanna

succeed. They're, they're, they're... It's
obvious. They're, they're not that

deluded. They, they truly just don't wanna
succeed. Um, but if you really wanted to

succeed, there was real stakes involved, I
think most people, they ask theirself,

the one first part is they don't really
fail, not just 'cause they can't, but

'cause they don't actually wanna try
anything. And so, you know, the Bible

tells you things you ought to get good at,
and obviously, this is a subject I'm so

-passionate about.
-Mm-hmm.

-Um-
-Yeah

-... I could go on.
-Well, I wanna stick to the counseling say,

I mean, this is a lot of our, lot of our
life is-

You know, it's usually a, a mom or a, a
wife, even a husband comes in and said, "I

just feel like a failure."

What's your counsel to them when they say
that?

You probably are.

-[laughs]
-Now what?

-Just shove them down a little further.
-No, because when they say, "I feel like a

failure," I'm like, right. So,

first of all, may- yeah, sure. Okay.

That's like a boring thing. Sometimes they
feel like a failure, like you probably

are. Like, all right.

Like,

well, you want me to be like, "No, you're
not"?

Well, what do you mean? Like,

you're not a failure? Like, we're all
failures in some ways. Now, there's two,

two sides to that. Well, one pers- I'm
like,

again, again,

being negative is arrogant just as much as
being positive.

If there's an arrogance, "I feel like a
failure. I can't believe it," I'm like,

"Why are you, why do you think you should
be so awesome?"

Like, you're a sinner, saved by grace.

You're trying to do something impossible,
which is,

you know, submit to your, like, husband
who's a knucklehead.

You know, you've got kids, you're tired.
Of course, it's hard. Even like,

you've got the old nature, you got all
these things, you're distracted. I mean,

yeah,

great. Stop, stop being so surprised

at that. Do you wanna, do you wanna get
better, or do you want to sit here and be

like, "No, no, you're, you're the best"?
It's like, it's truly the case with like

weight loss, something like, "No, no, you,
you look great. This is good." Like, who

cares? Just do, what do you want to do?

You got to look at reality and then fix
it. And so, yes, we all fail. Um, on the

flip side of things,

you know, sometimes the, the expectations
we have are improper. So like, I feel

like, like, so I say this about dads all
the time. There's like, there's dad guilt.

You know, all the movies growing up was
always like the dad that works at the

corporation, he's missing the kid's
baseball game, and at the end of the, at

the end of the movie, he's like, "I'm
gonna just quit my job and be with the

family."

All right.

Every dad now that's gonna miss a game,
it's like, oh gosh. I'm like, that's...

Biblically, you'd be like, what are you
doing? You're supporting the family. Like,

you can go to the game and maybe miss one
of them and come to the next one, and

there's things. Like, it's not just either
or. And so there's all these guys where

we're like, "Oh, I feel the guilt,"
because now that my kids are a little

older, there's these moments, I want to
have all these special moments. I'm like,

you can have special moments all the time.
Like,

uh, your, your kids are gonna remember so
many, like, they're, they think you're

awesome, and it's not about like every
single

time throwing the football.

I mean, when I think about throwing the
ball with my dad, like, I don't know, we

threw the ball a few times. It's not like
every single day. But the internet and

everyone else's life is constantly making
you feel guilty. So it's proper to like

take off some of those expectations

and asking people, "What do you want? What
is the expectation you think is?" You

know? Um, are, are you, are you measuring
up to something the Bible says or

something that like Instagram has said,
right? That's the first step. But in a, in

a macro sense, I... You do that for a
second, and then the second one is

like, whatever.

Like,

it's so boring. Like, it's so you-centric.
Like, get off your... Like, "Oh, I feel

like a failure. I'm the worst." Like, all
right, do you have joy in your life? Just

like, okay, let's move from there. Let's
make some steps forward.

In other words, you can never move forward
until you stop analyzing.

Like,

do you want to move forward? Yes. Okay,
all r- we're bored. We already covered you

want to get better. Like, how much more
do you want to stay here in this part, you

know?

-I don't know if that's helping, but...
-It, yeah, it is. I think it's, the

comparison is the almost always

-what I see.
-Yeah.

-There's-
-Thief of joy, right?

Yeah, it's like someone else in the church
or someone on Instagram, and when you

line up their life with scripture, they're
like, "Oh, I'm, I'm doing great."

-Yeah.
-Yeah, you don't have... Like you said, you

don't have to go to every ballgame. The
kids don't have to be rocket scientists.

-Your home's, like you're doing great.
-Comparison's bad in both directions

because if you compare yourself to
somebody and they're awesome... Like for

example, when you're a new preacher, the
worst thing in the world is like when,

when... Back in the day, if you were a
country preacher, the, you were the only

pastor in town. You're great. You're
probably the most educated guy in town.

-Everyone was like, "This guy's a genius."
-[laughs]

Now, you're a brand-new preacher, and
everyone you're preaching to is listening

to MacArthur and Sproul and all these guys
all the time. So they're gonna listen to

you, and then like two minutes later go
put on one of the best preachers ever.

It's always compared, right?

Um, so that's gnarly, but comparison does
a few things that are bad for us, and our

whole culture is m- built around it.
Financially, we, I mentioned covetousness,

but it's true in our lives,

and it's fake most of the time. So the
two, two mistakes are, one, is you look at

everyone and you're like, man, you feel
bad about yourself because they have more

than you.

That's bad. That's stealing your joy.
You're perfectly happy, you know, that,

when you, when you had what you wanted.
The second one is you see everyone else

and realize you have more, you start
taking pride in it. So neither one

usually... Comparison's almost never like
a, a happy game you should be playing. You

gotta be really careful with that. If,
the thing that c- helps you not to compare

is keep your eyes fixed on the Lord.

And

in that case, that always wins. You
compare yourself to him, you're always the

worst. You look at him, you're gonna
become just like him. We're gonna be... We

are going to be like him.

You're gonna end up there. It's also so
encouraging. So like, I think some of this

focus is, goes back to the
self-centeredness of our lives. I think a

lot of the, the, the problems with our
failures, our lack of trying, our lack of

success, is that we are just so focused on
ourselves constantly.

My own pleasures, my own pains, my own
victories. And even if you succeed at

someone, at something, no one really cares
either. Like, there's, there, I know

there's baseball nerds that know the stats
of who was in 1987, like, but that guy's

a nerd. Like normal people,

I don't know who won the Super Bowl in
1987.

One of the guys that we play golf with
sometimes, he was on the Buffalo Bills,

and neat guy, and he's an older guy now,
and I didn't know that. They, he, he

worked for some like online security
something. He's just a normal guy.

Mm-hmm.

I, I'm like, "Oh, it's cool you played on
the Bills. I don't even know what the

year..." I'm like,

he told me that, and it was like cool for
like two seconds.

But like growing up, like, "You could play
in the NFL," and like the amount of

people, I'm like,

"That's it?"

And he's just a normal guy. I don't know.

Do you think it has to do with as well, I
was going to give you some examples of

categories, and I will if this doesn't
make sense, but

how we, how, how we define success versus
how God defines success, and do you think

a lot of people don't understand... I'll
take the workplace, for instance.

-Yeah.
-Is workplace success

... getting to the top tier in my field,
or is it I just need to go there and be a

faithful employee who honors God, his work
is unto the Lord-

-Mm
-... and the cards will fall where they

-may.
-I wanna be careful here, because I think

that sometimes we create a false dilemma,
and not that that's what you're doing, but

you, but you kind of are because it's,
and I know you do it on purpose. But look,

if

part of the challenge in the bloom where
you're planted, trust the sovereignty of

God, you know, that's the idea of slaves,
be a good slave, essentially, right?

-Mm.
-Obey your masters, even the bad ones.

That, that, that's kind of the argument,
right? So we wanna be excellent in what we

do.

There's an element of recognizing the
plasticity of your circumstances. In other

words,

you know, the, the life God's given you.
But the problem for most people is this:

the life God has given you as an American
is one where you have the opportunity to

change your circumstances.

Mm. People have not always had this.

So I always wanna push back on this a tiny
bit, 'cause I'm the guy that's always

saying, you hear me all the time, like,

talk about the sovereignty of God,
trusting it, leaning on it, and, like,

living in it. But on the flip side, we are
Am- we do live in America. We live in,

like, this country where there's so much
opportunity. If you're, if you don't have

anything

and you're struggling and things aren't
good,

you have the ability to change that.

Like, so I just get s- kind of fed up a
little bit about someone who's,

maybe doesn't work or doesn't try, and
they have excuse after excuse. I'm like,

"All right."

-Mm-hmm.
-Like,

y- so...

And they're like, "Well, I'm just being
faithful." I'm like, "I don't really think

-you are."
-[laughs]

Because God just gave you a huge
opportunity and you're not taking it.

What's the opportunity?

Uh, I don't know. Start a business. Go
learn something online. Go spend your

time. Like, uh, you ask someone how they
use their time,

"Well, I watch, I know every episode of,
you know,

Breaking Bad, and," you know, like, uh,

people choose their loserness in this
country. Uh, y- th- there's very few

people, there's no one in our country
that's, like, needs to learn how to be a

better slave, in other words. Now, on the
flip side of things,

um, the secret often is that if God
humbles you and puts you in a position

where you have to do work and you don't
get a reputation, work super hard and know

that work unto the Lord, and there's...
I, I guess my whole point in this is

there's blessings in this. Remember,
there's, there's blessings in following

the Lord.

W- again,

w- we say this in marriage, we say this in
workplace, and we've, and I do this. We

create this false dilemma 'cause we're
pushing against the prosperity gospel that

God's only good when things are going
well. But we have to remind ourselves that

putting God first, what does he say?
"Seek first the kingdom of heaven,

and all these things will be added unto
you." And so we say, "No, that's all in

heaven." It doesn't say that. Yes, it's
true that our real prosperity is in

heaven, but there is an element where you
put God first in your workplace, and if

you work and you're the widget guy in the
factory, and you say, "I'm gonna work unto

the Lord. I don't care if anyone else
sees it. I'm gonna do it for God," you

know what's funny? People are like, "Man,
that guy works hard. He's awesome." You

tend to do well. We live in a country
where there's upward mobility. And let's

say you're like, "Well, I'm in a job
that's dead end." Well, you know what?

There's another job that might hire you.
You should start putting your applications

out and just keep working hard. You know
what happens with, like, working hard and

diligence and not taking drugs and not
having sex outside of marriage and not

getting everyone pregnant and not doing...
Like, you tend to do well and have

blessings. So you have to match that with
a contentment,

and so maybe the opportunity is to be
promoted, in other words. Um, but there's

nothing wrong with saying, "Well, I'm
content and I'm happy." But what I don't

like is the guy that's like, "I don't want
the promotion,"

'cause they're lazy, and then they make
excuses, and their family doesn't have

money.

Like, this is true sometimes. Like, let's
say someone's working a job

and they don't have enough money,

and they're struggling,

and they could get a promotion if they
worked harder.

Uh,

I don't think that's a moment where you
say, "I'm just being faithful to God." I

-don't think you are.
-Right.

-You know what I mean? So-
-Yeah.

-Um-
-Yeah, I think those are great questions to

ask when someone comes in. Ask, 'cause,
you know, I hear all the time, you know,

the measure, it's Matthew 11, "The measure
of a man is not in the sum of his

possessions," but I do think you make a
great point of living in America. Well, if

you are disciplined and working unto the
Lord, we're in a culture where more than

likely that will lead to upward mobility
in your career or other places.

Any American that uses any of those quotes
to think that they have little is

-historically stupid.
-[laughs]

Every American is richer than everyone
every, uh, anywhere. Like, you literally

have a supercomputer in your phone. You're
richer than your parents in the '80s

because of the sheer access to things you
have. You can get Chi- you can get things

sent to your door and j- like, I just
don't wanna hear it from people. We j- and

the reason they feel that they don't have
any money, every American that feels poor

-only feels poor because of comparison.
-Mm-hmm.

Truly. Every American, the, the most poor
seeming, like, the lower middle class,

like, when you say, "Okay, in the poverty
class," I'm like,

"Education, opportunity," I'm like, "You
have opportunity to get better." Like,

there, at some point people say that's
cruel and un- and empathetic.

Yes, in a culture where there's
opportunities, there are winners and

losers. The merit of that allows people to
own the responsibility, and so everyone

talks about privilege and opportunity. I'm
like, "That's true, but you can work hard

and you can do this." We've just created
this thing where we just said to people,

"No, you can't work hard. You are forced
to be..." That's so non-American, but it's

also

different than the Bible. The Bible's not
put us in a caste system. You have a good

citizen in this country

sees opportunities. I think that some
people just don't... What they need to be

told is, "You're lazy," or, "You're a
fool," or y- we don't use those terms very

much.

And

a lot of people are learning.

You know, like, you look at the superhero
movies. Like, w- like, why do we have

feminists? Well, every Disney movie is
about, like, the, the woman, "Oh, Daddy, I

wanna go marry whoever I want." I'm like,
"Well, you just had to put your whole dad

into slavery and ev- just ruin the whole
kingdom. You should just listen to him."

-Mm.
-"No, but now I'm married." I'm like, "Oh."

You know, um, like we said before, Gaston
is a caricature of manliness, and we

just, we, we keep educating our people
into being sort of less and less, um,

motivated. And so I think that the
storyline that the,

that we tell ourselves is important, and
biblically,

the Bible story is not about weakness.
"Yes, it is about Jesus being weakness."

Oh, don't miss this. That's a triumph. And
so, e- w- yes, there's challenge, but

notice he says that when we are persecuted
When we're cut down, we're not destroyed,

we're... Does he say, "Just get through
it. You'll get through it"? He says, "No,

no, we're more than conquerors." In other
words, the story we tell ourselves in the

Christian life, even in the midst of
persecution, is one of triumph and

conquering. We don't tell ourselves the
story of weakness. We experience weakness

as victory because it's his strength.
That's a, such a big difference than, "Ah,

it's okay, we're just supposed to be
weak." That is not the biblical story. I,

I just, you know... Can you imagine David
being like, "Yeah, go ahead and, like,

kill my family"? This is so stupid,

-so.
-Thanks, Matt. Uh, we're gonna cut it

-there. I know.
-[laughs]

-This is our-
-[laughs] I was about to say keep going.

[laughs] Uh, so we're gonna sh- that was
good. This is our second one of today.

Sean, he just texted me, "I have a life. I
have to get going." [laughs]

-Oh, gosh.
-That's true.

-How dare you?
-Uh, I'm gonna do, [laughs] do one does it

-slap?
-Okay.

And I was thinking about the World Cup.

The Netherlands.

-I think all the World Cup slaps.
-No, just the country. Does the Netherlands

-slap?
-Um,

-I don't know.
-The Dutch.

Yeah.

-Yeah.
-I like Norway, though, the Vikings. Do you

see what their cheers are? They're like,
they all do the roar. They're, "Hoo," like

-the-
-Oh, yeah. All right

... thing. But the Netherlands, I don't
know.

-Pretty slappy.
-Cool. You know, the, the World Cup, they

keep showing, every time a person scores,
they'll always show a family, and they

always show, like, a pretty girl from that
country-

-[laughs]
-... in the stands. I think it's really

-hilarious.
-Yeah, it's good. [laughs]

It's, it's pretty funny.

Uh, if you have more questions on failure
that you want us to answer, please go to

alottofwordspodcast.com. Click on the Ask
a Question button-

-Mm-hmm
-... and we will get your question. Again,

this is just around failure, kind of in
life, not moral failure-

-Yeah
-... uh, sin. That, we- we'll, that's

-another, another time for another day.
-God can use that, too, but that's as a

-different subject.
-He will. It's a different subject. Uh, get

a mug, get a shirt, get a book.

Um, anything else? Nope, that's a skull.
Sean, is there anything to add?

He's like, "Get this done with."

No way.

-No way.
-I'm not failing at this.

Yeah, if you enjoyed the podcast, make
sure to like and subscribe. Share it with

-others. We will see you next week.
-Maybe.

-[whoosh]
-[upbeat music] Hey, Matt, you know what

-really slaps?
-What?

Our subscribers, the people who watch the
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appreciate you tuning in each week to
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Make sure you like and subscribe and watch
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